What we talked about
Dan Kurdys joins the PreVetted Podcast to explore how AI, CRISPR, and modern plant science can help crops – and the people who depend on them – keep up with a changing climate. As Executive Vice President of Business Development at Pairwise and former Global Business Lead for GenAI at Bayer Crop Science, he works where agriculture and deep tech meet, focused on turning science into real products for farmers and families.
Show notes
Before Pairwise, Dan spent more than two decades at the intersection of agriculture and deep tech, most recently as Global Business Lead for GenAI at Bayer Crop Science, where he helped launch the E.L.Y. GenAI platform and co-founded the AI Agribench Consortium:using AI to make decades of agronomic expertise instantly accessible to people on the ground.  His earlier roles spanned strategy, seed growth and horticulture leadership across North and South America, giving him a front-row seat to how climate change and shifting consumer expectations are transforming agriculture.  
Full transcript
Federico Ramallo (00:00) Welcome back to the pre-vetted podcast where we spotlight extraordinary people and remarkable talent reshaping our world. Today we’re joined by Dan Curtis. He’s the executive vice president of business development at Pairwise where he builds partnerships that turns breakthroughs in plant gene editing into real products for farmers, consumers and the planet. Before Pairwise, Dan spent more than two decades at the intersection of agriculture and deep tech.
most recently as global business lead for Gen.ai at Bayer Corp. Science, where he helped launch the ELI Gen.ai platform and co-founded the AI AgriBench Consortium, using AI to make decades of agronomic expertise instantly accessible to people on the ground. His earlier role spanned strategy seed growth and horticulture leadership across North America and South America, giving him a front row seat at how climate change
and shifting consumer expectations are transforming agriculture. So today we’re going to explore how AI, CRISPR, and next-generation plant science can help crops keep up with a warming, less predictable world and what it takes to move those technologies from the lab to real fields and real plates. Dan, welcome to the show. Yes, thank you. I’m honored to have you here today. So…
Dan Kurdys (01:19) Thank you, good to see you.
Good to be here.
Federico Ramallo (01:27) First I wanted to ask you a question about, have you seen the movie Interstellar where they have this blight that wipe out most crops and leave, they can only grow corn. How likely that scenario could happen in real life?
Dan Kurdys (01:45) Well, I love sci-fi and I love the movie. I mean, this one like, you know, pulls it at my heartstrings having like daughters, because here’s his dad like making this impossible decision of leaving something precious behind and trying to make a better future for it’s just, you know, it gets me like just the heartstrings. the interstellar agronomics, the blight is exaggerated. But the highlight of the risk is real is agriculture fails with complacency on innovation.
And so if we just keep running the same game plan in the world on agriculture to feed people, we can run into problems because nature evolves and adapts. Right. So I think what’s interesting, I mean, it’s it’s a really cool setup to this podcast because interstellar it ends up, it’s about escaping earth. And it’s what happens when we forget about the food systems being civilizations foundation. have all this cool tech, right? But they, can only use it to leave. They can’t use it to fix, fix the planet, which is.
which is really crazy when you think about it, but it speaks to, you know, you gotta be able to feed people, which I think is wonderful setup to show. So, yeah.
Federico Ramallo (02:47) Right,
right. mean, we cannot feed tech, we cannot eat technology, but technology can help us eat better, right?
Dan Kurdys (02:52) No.
That’s right. Absolutely.
Federico Ramallo (02:56) Amazing, So can you tell us a little bit about your origin? When you first realized, I want to help reinvent how we grow food.
Dan Kurdys (03:06) Yeah, so humble beginnings in college. I worked in production cornfields in Constantine, Michigan. And it was, you know, I still love the job. I woke up early, checked in in a barn with like a punch card at a time clock. And I got these carbon copy papers and I got my truck and I drove out and I scouted cornfields all day. And so it was a lot of time with corn plants in fields, right?
Federico Ramallo (03:27) wow.
Dan Kurdys (03:31) But for me, I loved being outside. I loved agriculture. And here we were using these like three copy carbon things, writing all these notes, and then we turn them in and, you know, they would go back to like a headquarters and somebody would have to log them into a computer and all this. And so my dad at the time was working in pharmaceuticals and I got to do factory tours and things. And I saw the vision systems and robotics that they were starting to use. And I’m like,
why are we doing this in agriculture still? Like, why are we using these carbon copy things? And, you know, why aren’t we thinking about drones and vision systems and satellites and how they could make this more accurate and faster? And that hooked me, right? From then on, I just felt this opportunity to be a bridge between the science out there and making it a business to solve problems. And here I am today.
Federico Ramallo (04:23) Amazing. Amazing. Yeah, you can see the opportunity of there has to be a better way to do it. Yeah. But but also, you know, being having your experience with, you know, boots on the ground allow you to, know, because I’ve seen a lot of on the on the on the market, I’ve seen a lot of hype with, you know, with AI. But you have, you know.
Dan Kurdys (04:28) Yes.
Federico Ramallo (04:47) your Routed experience allows you to connect the dream with the reality and make significant changes in the world.
Dan Kurdys (04:54) I love to tell a story about my grandpa was a tool and die maker. didn’t go to college and he had this game with me where he would tease me because I went to college, got an MBA and he’s like, you got all these degrees. And so he’d go to auctions and he’d buy these tools and he’d bring them and show me. He’s like, what does this do? And I would never know. And so he gets to poke at me and be like, well, you got all these degrees. You don’t know about these tools. But it always impressed on me that there’s a tool for everything.
I mean, there are all kinds of weird tools out there, right? And you don’t start with a tool, you start with a problem. And to your point, I think walking cornfields, being out there with customers, that’s where you sense the pain and the challenges, and that’s where you find the problems. And then you match tools. And so there is a lot of hype on some of these technologies and stuff. But in the end, it comes back to what’s the problem you’re trying to solve and then matching the right tool set to those problems.
Federico Ramallo (05:47) Right, right. mean, when I see hype, I mean, so I think we all have these different profiles inside us. So we have the dreamer, the technician, the manager, right. And as a dreamer, I like, you we could, you know, do all this stuff. Sounds cool. But then, you know, I think that being able to land that into reality, it’s a much more significant, it has a much more significant impact in the world than
than the hype, right? That’s kind of daydreaming, if you like, right? And when I see that, it’s something cool, but it breaks on the demo, then it doesn’t make a lot of sense for me, right? I think more of an impact on the world, I think that’s more important, right?
Dan Kurdys (06:27) That’s right. Yeah, you got to take it to the problem you’re solving and then match the tools appropriately to that problem.
Federico Ramallo (06:34) Right, right, yeah. I don’t know if you’ve seen the video where the actor of Stranger Things, asked them for, know, how does, you know, devices from the 80 works, right? They don’t know how to use a phone, right? And things like that, right? They don’t know how to dial, right? So I find that interesting, is what you’re talking about, right? We evolved so much.
the tools evolve that eventually we, as a society, we lose the knowledge of how things used to work.
Dan Kurdys (07:02) yeah, I lived that every day with my kids. It’s so funny. They don’t understand rotary phones or any of that, right? Never lived that. Or even talking to your friend on the phone. They just like, you don’t sit around on the house phone with the cord and talk to your buddies anymore. It’s like that doesn’t happen in here. So yeah, it’s funny.
Federico Ramallo (07:03) You
Right.
Yes, yes. Yeah, but I also think that it’s important to go back to some of those roots, right? Because, you know, the more I talk about AI, the more I realize that the core knowledge becomes much more important and significant in the industry, because now you have new professionals that are relying, over relying on AI technologies.
but they don’t know how to do things, right? And they lost that, right? So they’re using, they’re taking for granted the responses from AI tools that may or may not apply, right? Most of the time it does, but it sometimes it doesn’t, right?
Dan Kurdys (07:55) That’s making great products is about solving those pain points. Otherwise it’s just a science project. Right? You have to know you’re solving problems for, I mean, ideally in agriculture, farmers, food retail, consumers, the planet, you want to check all those boxes in your product, right? That you’re making an impact on each. That’s a blockbuster product.
Federico Ramallo (08:02) Right. Right.
Right.
So for listeners that may not know what is Perways, can you tell us what Perways is about and what is the role of planned gene editing?
Dan Kurdys (08:30) Yeah, this is the airplane conversation. I always get asked this at the airplane or at school events. I think the simplest way to talk about it is we make plants easier to grow and eat. so I like to our prior conversation, I like to talk about the products because that’s what people relate to. And so what I can say is, you know, like everybody with kids, like we talk a lot about trying to get your kids to eat fruits and vegetables and some of the experiences they have like
you think about cherries. My kids love cherries, but pitting cherries is a project for parents, right? And then you worry about young kids, like getting a pit or something. And so that pairwise is looking at, well, we’re in development of pitless cherries. And so you think about that, like, what an amazing product for families, right? To bring home for their kids to eat more cherries. And so that’s the type of stuff we work on.
with CRISPR technologies is making exciting products like that that you’d be excited to have at your table, but that also bring value to farmers, to food retail, and then are more resource efficient for the planet as well.
Federico Ramallo (09:31) Right, right. To that point, I’ve seen lot of food companies promote a lot, chips and whatnot, but there is not a lot of promotion for vegetables, The cherry industry is not putting ads out there, Which they shouldn’t, but at the end of the day, what the kids are exposed to, right? They get the junk food ads.
So as parents, it’s our job to provide them with better food. So I find it interesting that at Pairways you’re developing more interesting produce that will be more fun to have on the table.
Dan Kurdys (10:09) Yeah, that’s right. mean, yeah, you go to the grocery store and there’s like, yeah, the snack aisle has got so many options and exciting colors and stuff, right? And I think CRISPR opens that up for fruits and veggies where, you know, you’ll be able to walk in someday and, you know, see just way more options that are more fun and easier to eat and more enjoyable experiences in fruits and veggies.
Federico Ramallo (10:29) Right, right. And the kids are very picky on the food that they eat. Yeah, yeah. My son, if I grill something and I toast it a little bit, he rejects it. It’s burnt, right? It’s burnt, right? But it’s a beef. It has to be burned, right? has to be not burned, but grilled, right? No, no, no, he rejects it completely, right?
Dan Kurdys (10:40) No that, Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Federico Ramallo (10:55) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the same with seats and things like that. He’s very picky on that. ⁓
Dan Kurdys (11:00) It’s helped me be
very resilient. Like I make breakfast for my four daughters. I think I get more feedback in the first 30 minutes of my day about what I’m doing wrong than most people do in a lifetime. I’ve become very resilient to feedback, right? Yeah.
Federico Ramallo (11:12) Right, right.
And they don’t have any filters, raw feedback. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is the highlight of my day, and it breaks my heart when my son rejects the food. And it’s a highlight when he accepts it. It’s something so silly, but yeah. Yeah. So eventually I…
Dan Kurdys (11:16) Yeah, very honest. Yeah.
Federico Ramallo (11:35) cook him a piece of meat with microwave and he was like yeah that’s okay you know that works because he has no burn into it right so I’m thinking there’s a better way to eat meat right but anyway someday yeah yeah yeah someday yeah so can you can you tell us in simple terms what crisps crisper is about
Dan Kurdys (11:42) Yes.
Yeah, yeah, someday, someday.
Yeah, I like to explain it as think of a genome as a long document, right? Like you’re working in Word and you got a long document or whatever your preferred processor is. And CRISPR-based tools allow you the tools to edit that document to make a better version. So you think about, know, in the software world when you’re working on Word, you got like Control-F and you got Delete button and you got like Copy-Paste and it’s…
It’s CRISPR opens that kind of stuff up for the genome where you can, you know, in a fast way, very precise and very safe, make changes to get a preferred outcome of a product to improve performance. And so it’s, it makes the plant better. And I’m excited about opportunities like, for example, we talk about franchise traits. So these are these traits we’ve developed that we think can spread across a lot of different crops and add value.
Some would be like making a plant compact and really allows you to increase density of production for more efficient output, more yield off the farm. And then flower sooner. So some like fruit crops take a long time to produce a fruit. Well, if you can bring a trait that helps them flower sooner, you can get to fruit faster, which is meaningful, right? It helps with seasonality. It helps with returns. And so we have these franchise traits that we know
taking you back to the word editor of like where to make the right changes to plants to get these types of outcomes. And I think that’s the easiest way to wrap your head around CRISPR and the CRISPR tools and what they do. And so all the innovation is like adding to how do you target? How do you make the changes better? How do you make bigger changes at one time? That’s kind of the innovation of CRISPR.
Federico Ramallo (13:35) Interesting, interesting. Are we going to see some… I remember it became viral many years ago, the cubic watermelons, right? I don’t know if it was real or not, but when you were talking about more compact, I recall that. It’s something with compact, it’s something like that that you’re thinking on doing.
Dan Kurdys (13:55) I’m speaking more to the plant itself. if you imagine plants, well, we talked about resiliency. Plants biologically, you know, kind of developed to be resilient. So they make a lot of vegetative mass and then they convert that into what they need to reproduce and get the next offspring and keep going. Well, you can make edits to make that plant focus more on developing fruit.
And so you make a plant that’s less like long and broad and vegetation more focused on, you know, do the vegetation you need, but increase the fruit output in a given area. And so that type of planting enables that planting density. So you have more fruit per given area. That’s the idea I talk about. But you’re right. mean, CRISPR opens doors to think about changing plant architecture for those types of benefits that can
you know, provide benefits to farmers, provide seasonality to food retailers, right? So those are the types of things you can do with CRISPR for sure.
Federico Ramallo (14:54) Interesting. Yeah, I remember reading about the replanting of avocado trees, which became an issue that you plant avocados at a specific spread, but then some grow faster, so you have to kind of relocate them, right? So if that could be more predictable, then you can plant them in a specific spread that would, you now you don’t need to replant them, right?
Dan Kurdys (15:00) Mm.
You got it. Yeah.
That’s right. that’s, I mean, it’s really interesting in a couple of ways that you bring up avocado is it speaks to like, the world has put a lot of resources into optimizing corn, soy, cotton, you know, those major row crops, but there’s a lot of crops that didn’t get focused attention and avocado, know, cacao, different fruit crops where
you don’t have these major companies with large breeding programs that are working on germplasm development and advancing breeding gains and as well as bringing traits in. There’s a lot of crops that just didn’t get that attention. So it leaves a lot of opportunities for those crops to be better, way better than they are today. And avocado would be an example of that where I think it’s gonna be really exciting into the future as some of those resources go to crops like that to
make them more productive, make them taste better, make them more available and a better eating experience.
Federico Ramallo (16:15) Right, right, and more efficient so they can grow faster, use less resources, and you also mentioned resilience.
Dan Kurdys (16:24) Yes, absolutely.
Federico Ramallo (16:25) Interesting. So getting into that, what CRISPR can help on keep up with climate change.
Dan Kurdys (16:33) I think the two key vectors there are producing crops where it’s just more environmentally friendly. That some crops are produced in areas where it’s just, you know, there’s political challenges, there’s already climate change challenges to accessing resources, resource environment is shifting, but there’s other areas of the world where those plants could grow and grow well that resources are more accessible and.
So I think that’s starting to happen is see those opportunities. And I see CRISPR is playing a role in supporting that to help optimize the production systems for those new locations. And then you get this like dual benefit of like, okay, you’re a production that’s better in a location where the resources are more available, as well as we are talking about this, but making the crops more resource efficient so that they’re getting more conversion.
into yield of the resources you give them. And so that’s also better in terms of resiliency.
Federico Ramallo (17:30) Right, right. So being able to use to customize the crops for a specific location, ⁓ that’s something that you’re working on.
Dan Kurdys (17:39) That would be one version
and then the crop themselves actually being more resource efficient in what you’re giving it. So more output for the same input.
Federico Ramallo (17:48) Right, right. Interesting, interesting. That would be something interesting to see, So can you walk us through the journey from identifying a desirable trait in a crop to actually seeing a crisp edited variety being tested on the field?
Dan Kurdys (18:06) Yeah, yeah. we, it’s in the name, pairwise, we work with partners, so trying to create good pairings, right? So we want to work with partners to unlock nature’s potential. And the way we do that is it starts with a vision. And so that vision is around how us with the partner bring complementary capabilities to create something cool, something transformative, right? And that’s really what our focus is, is really rewriting a market, making something really unique and cool.
Federico Ramallo (18:13) Right.
Dan Kurdys (18:32) And then we move to a product concept, which this is where we get to that specifics of what pain points are we addressing and how and what are the requirements technically to do that and so having it align product concepts and ideally that’s where you’re solving for pain for the farmer, the food retailer, the consumer and some sustainability benefits as well. Then you know you’re jointly working together to make a really powerful product. You get the paperwork done and we start the science.
And so that starts in labs and in greenhouses. Our science is world-class. I mean, it’s really amazing the talent that we have and the capabilities. Really uniquely is our ability to find the right targets and making the transformation systems for those really unique outcomes that we’re trying to bring to market. And then once we get to product spec in greenhouse, it goes to the field and you start doing field trials and tuning that system that goes around it. So that’s kind of the journey from idea to the field.
Federico Ramallo (19:26) Right, interesting. And you’re doing that on a global level, right?
Dan Kurdys (19:30) Yeah, we are a global company and we work with partners all over the world.
Federico Ramallo (19:35) Interesting, Yeah, I’ve seen in Mexico that the crops are being, people are growing crops are being less appreciated because what they’re growing doesn’t allow them to make, they cannot make a good living by growing crops, right?
Dan Kurdys (19:52) Hmm.
Federico Ramallo (19:54) There are exceptions though, mean, avocados is one of them that are doing good and lemons, it’s another one. But yeah, they’ve been complaining about that and part of that is the market, but also the inefficiency of the crops, right?
Dan Kurdys (20:10) Yeah, that’s right. I mean, I go back to where we started with Interstellar, know, bringing innovation is a key unlock for farmers to get more value out of their production.
Federico Ramallo (20:19) Right. So I can see how, know, pairwise would have a significant impact with these farmers, right, to helping them do, build more, grow more efficient and sufficiently and being able to make a better income for themselves, right. So anyway, changing topics, you you’ve been working on GNI efforts at Bayer, right? So…
Where does AI make the biggest difference in gen editing and pipeline discovery on pairways?
Dan Kurdys (20:45) Yes, I’ve been working in AI since 2022, right? And I remember the first release of, there was a sandbox for OpenAI chat GPT that I played in and started asking agronomy questions. And I was like, oh my gosh, if you could tune this thing, it’d be awesome because agriculture is one those things where you got to know a lot about like a lot of different things. And so having something in your hand that could get you to answers quick would, it adds a lot of value if you’re out in the field, right?
So I believe we’re at an inflection point in agriculture and the industry is restructuring around gene editing and AI as the drivers of innovation going forward. And this is emerging, but early days it’s like clear that companies with unique knowledge and the validation capabilities are set to make the most of AI. And I see it both in like AI for the front lines, like an agronomist supporting a farmer or a farmer directly.
Federico Ramallo (21:14) Right.
Dan Kurdys (21:40) trying to make a decision on the right product or the right rate. That was my past role where we saw the benefits of that, that we could see agronomists getting answers faster, making better decisions faster. And now at pairwise, I can see there’s also gonna be value in helping scientists in the pipelines where they can use AI to make the decisions that are like more trivial so they can focus on the higher level decisions, right?
And increasingly, AI will move from that system that does lower level decisions to more of a thought partner over time. And you can see this trajectory happening in real time. There seems to be weekly updates now of these foundational models doing protein discovery or doing more science, doing math. And so increasingly, I think we’ll see where it’s truly a thought partner to the scientist.
And that’s kind of the curve we’re on. So I view it as like a force multiplier to scientists to focus on, you know, really the judgment and the impact and the higher value decisions. And then it’ll drive throughput where you’ll get to outcomes faster in kind of a process view.
Federico Ramallo (22:51) Right, right, interesting, interesting. I think that having specialized AI agents has a significant difference on this industry because the level of complexity and context that you need to have in order to make better decisions, it’s very specific and very, you need too many years of experience in order to be able to grasp.
grasp of those concepts, So can see how GEN.AI will help on that,
Dan Kurdys (23:18) That’s right.
Federico Ramallo (23:19) What other projects are you planning to do with AI? How are things? Otherwise you think AI will help to make better decisions on the field.
Dan Kurdys (23:27) On the field, well, I look at it this way. think it’s everybody, but it also specific to agriculture is that in my experience today, I’ve learned, you know, we don’t need more data necessarily. We got data all over the place, right? And we’re kind of drowning in it in different fields and jobs. what is the problem is converting data to insight at the moment a decision has to be made.
And that, I think AI has a big role in driving productivity with solving that. That how do I get to the right information at the time of the decision quickly and conveniently and easily? And that’s what I’ve seen when things really take off is where you start to solve for how to make it easy to bring in the right context so that AI can help guide you to the right information and insights you need to make a better decision. And I think that’s going to happen.
across a lot of jobs and fields and in agriculture. I always talk about healthcare. Still, they point to one of the top issues in healthcare is error, medical error, right? Just decisions that were made or they didn’t get the right diagnostic and stuff. It’s still in the top 10 globally of issues. I think about in agriculture, that’s got to be an enormous problem because
It’s just hard to pick the right product, to pick the right rates, to pick the right timing. You’re dealing with nature where weather gets in the way and it’s just very difficult. So I think AI and helping get the right context and then the right insights to make those decisions better will be really powerful to farmers around the world to, you know, drive their livelihoods and make better decisions and then for their advisors to support them better. And then also in the pipelines in R &D, for R &D to be
more informed about how to get to the right new products faster, the right innovations faster. I think AI will play a role in each of those.
Federico Ramallo (25:23) Right, because by the time you make a decision until you see the result, the level of complexity is so big, you have so much delay, it could be months, right? And then if you make another decision in between, you’re affecting the outcome, right? So being able to track that relationship for humans is almost impossible, right?
But having an agent that can track that and be able to react to all the different situations that happen in nature, I think that would be a game changer.
Dan Kurdys (25:53) That’s right, yeah, your target is as an agent is like how to match, how to scale deep expertise and match it to real world context in real time. And that’s like the target, I think. And then you’re helping people really unlock productivity when you reach that.
Federico Ramallo (26:08) Right. So a lot of innovation starts in major row crops, right? How do we make sure that AI and gene editing also benefit smallholder farmers and underserved crops?
Dan Kurdys (26:23) Yeah, you know, that’s not a technology alone thing. It gets solved by partnerships. know, row crops are usually moved first because the economics are clear. There’s established distribution and commercialization and stuff. But smallholder and regional crops move forward when the right groups are working together. And I’ve seen that, right? When the right NGOs and companies come together, then you can make an impact.
I think that’s how these things will get to small holders and specialty crops.
Federico Ramallo (26:49) Right, right, yeah. And then that will also have a multiplier effect, right? And I can see why you’re focusing on partnerships, because that could have a much more impact on scale, right?
Dan Kurdys (27:05) Yes, yeah. Well, and you think about it, I mean, like we just talked about with AI and its ability to scale so easily, with partnerships, you start to be able to get those types of solutions into the hands of smallholders. You get the cost down, you get the deployment right that smallholders can engage. so you get that great expert agronomic advice in the hands of smallholders that they may never get to interact with an agronomist.
So you’re really helping up level their capabilities. And then I talked about with gene editing. I mean, I think what we’ll see there is that people start to discover, wow, we can make amazing products and things outside of corn and soy. And we can work in fruit and veggies and make these products better. And I think that transition starting and it’s so exciting around the things that’ll start to come in terms of experiences like pitless cherries or seedless blackberries.
I get so tired of picking those blackberry seeds out of my teeth, right? I wanna have a smoothie with the blackberry where you’re not just like sucking seeds out of a straw. And that stuff’s coming. It’s just gonna be so amazing.
Federico Ramallo (27:59) You
Right, right, interesting. So, talking a bit about consumers experience, how do you think in balancing traits like yield and shelf life with traits consumers feel directly like flavor, nutrition and convenience?
Dan Kurdys (28:21) Well, I mean, I speak about it this way. Your question points out what has been a trade off is that often there has to be decisions around trading off nutrition versus yield versus shelf stability versus flavor. And so we’ve had to live with the outcomes of those choices made up the chain from us. when we go to the grocery store and we get to eat, we just get those options that are presented, right? And somebody had to optimize for
know, costs, so they chose one thing over another. And so I think with gene editing, we can start to change that. And maybe there won’t be trade-offs, or as much trade-offs. And so you don’t have to sacrifice nutrition for yield or flavor for shelf life. And that’s been the case for many years, that those trade-offs are very real in certain crops, and that maybe we can change that dynamic, that you don’t have to make those decisions like that anymore. It’s kind of, you know,
take the works off a germplasm, if you will, right? And don’t make it so we have to make trade-offs. The highest yielding, if one’s like high yielding, but the flavor isn’t great, well, let’s tweak it. Or if the flavor’s great, but the yield’s not great, well, let’s tweak it. I think those are the opportunities going forward.
Federico Ramallo (29:30) Interesting. So with CRISPR you can customize the crops so you don’t have to make those trade-offs.
Dan Kurdys (29:40) Yeah, I think what CRISPR will offer and CRISPR tools is that we aren’t forced to make as many of those trade-off decisions anymore into the future. And it’ll improve the options that we have at retail because those trade-offs won’t be as stark.
Federico Ramallo (29:55) Right, interesting. And are you simulating the future crops? Can you establish how the changes on the genes are going to affect the result, what the outcome is going to be? So you could keep iterating over that.
Dan Kurdys (30:09) Yeah, I mean, so as a pairwise is very good about defining what edits to make and tying those to the outcome we want to achieve and then doing that in a very precise, speedy and increasingly faster and safe way. so, yeah, I think companies like pairwise, you know, are leading in how to make these tradeoffs less stark into the future and be really targeted. And what’s exciting is like each
each exciting product iteration comes faster. We get this process better and better every time, right? And so I think that bodes really well for the future of increasing the options that we have at the grocery stores and to put on our family’s table.
Federico Ramallo (30:50) Interesting, So we talk about gen editing, a little bit of AI, but what have you found actually helped people, farmers, retailers, consumers build trust in this type of technologies?
Dan Kurdys (31:05) Yeah, people trust what they can see and understand. You know, I think it comes down to that. So you tell a story about the problem you were solving and then you give the product experience that’s way more effective than explaining the science. I mean, I’ve had the opportunity to taste pairwise early products and it’s an amazing, my kids did it with me. It’s an amazing experience, right? And then it’s just exciting. then it opens the door to talk about, you know, this is a better product.
because of the technology. That product experience just changes the game. It becomes real, it becomes human. And then I think you can be really transparent about it and it builds trust, right? It’s that kind of sequence of, let’s give you, you know, the problem we’re trying to solve, give you a better experience around it. And then it opens the door to really talk about the technology and be transparent about it. But you get that exciting experience of the food tasting. That’s really amazing.
Federico Ramallo (31:57) That’s amazing. Now I’m here to try one of the Per West products. Yes. So, you know, talking about regulations, how do regulatory frameworks today help or hinder innovation in gen editing? And what changes would you like to see to encourage responsible progress?
Dan Kurdys (32:00) Yeah, I’m making you hungry, right? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s great tailwinds and many countries treat gene editing as gene editing plants similar to traditionally bred plants, which makes sense because the outcomes are the same versus like GMOs, which is really something distinctly different. Like we’re really doing improved breeding. But regulations are still uneven globally, very uneven. still, you know, there’s still major areas trying to figure out what their approach is going to be. And so what would would help is just clarity and consistency.
this embracing gene editing as like breeding. And then, know, countries getting behind that this is a key pathway to innovation and unlocking value for their farmers, for their consumers, for their value chains. I think that’s what I’d like to see as a way to progress for everybody.
Federico Ramallo (33:00) Right, right. Can you expand a bit more on what are the benefits of CRISPR versus GMO?
Dan Kurdys (33:06) Yeah, CRISPR, yeah, CRISPR, you’re kind of working with the genome is there, right? Like you’re just working with what you have versus genetically modified organism like traditional traits, you you’re inserting something new. And so that pathway is established, right? But it’s intense. It takes 15, 16 years. It’s like, I think it’s up to 250, $260 million. It’s…
Federico Ramallo (33:08) or gene editing,
Dan Kurdys (33:31) it’s made it really hard to drive rapid innovation with that pathway. And so where I think it’s really exciting about gene editing is here’s a pathway that’s more like breeding, but gives you kind of like these really robust outcomes, but it’s with speed, right? It’s like, you’re not talking about a 16 year horizon. You’re talking about, you know, seven or less, and you’re not talking about $215 million, right? You’re talking in the…
know, 20 to $50 million range to get something transformative to market. So I think that that’s really why I see the industry shifting to these new foundations of gene editing and AI as the source of innovation, because the innovation curves are just so much more favorable versus, you know, some of these more mature technology paths.
Federico Ramallo (34:20) Right, right. not only it’s less cost, it’s faster turnaround. And also with GMO, you’re also have to, you’re adding foreign genes, right? So you have to, ⁓ you know, right.
Dan Kurdys (34:31) Yep, this is no foreign DNA, right? It’s you’re just working
with what’s there. Just like breeding in nature works.
Federico Ramallo (34:38) Right, there is a significant difference in the architectural approach because you don’t have to eliminate foreign genes. You’re just picking and modifying specific genes. Interesting.
Dan Kurdys (34:48) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You got it.
Federico Ramallo (34:51) So when you’re training AI systems and agronomic data, what are the biggest risks around bias or blind spots? How do you keep models honest when nature is so complex?
Dan Kurdys (35:03) You know, context is so important in agriculture and that’s the major element is how to pull in context in a convenient way. And it has to be both to your point, like there’s context around data, around timing situations, but also environmental context. I…
So I think connecting systems will be really important in context hunting is kind of a new kind of a cutting edge approach in AI where you create agents that can do some of that context hunting for you and pull in the inputs. But that’s where we learned in prompt engineering is you have to take users input and restructure the prompt with the right context to get good, really solid responses.
the tricky part with agriculture, where you you test some of the foundational models is so much agriculture is kind of this tacit knowledge and as well as contextual version. They struggle with really robust answers and kind of misread things if the user isn’t putting in all those details. And so I think really good agents will bridge that problem and find innovative solutions to that.
Federico Ramallo (36:14) Right, right. I’ve seen agents talking to agents to kind of provide the preparation of data, right? ⁓ And then agents testing other agents to basically make sure that the outcome is what is expected, right? And I’ve seen more and more of that level of complexity that I think is going to allow us to provide better results on agents.
Dan Kurdys (36:18) Mm-hmm. Yes.
Yeah, these multi-agent systems and getting how, well, it speaks to some principles that are just beyond AI, right, of this specialization from wealth and nations, right, as Adam Smith. it’s that you can create these agents that are highly specialized and they work together in coordinated systems. I think we still have a lot to learn about how do you construct those systems well, but I agree with you. Like agents for context-studying, agents as a judge.
Those seem like important things that can help increase the accuracy and the value of the outputs.
Federico Ramallo (37:11) Right, right. Very interesting that you quote Adam Smith. I think he’s a great author. I’m reading a lot of his books on economics. Yeah.
Dan Kurdys (37:19) I love, it’s a very strange hobby and weird quirk, but I love reading economic stuff. It’s like, I don’t know, I read it every day. I follow Tyler Cowen and his work and his blog and I just love, you know, I economic stuff.
Federico Ramallo (37:36) Right, right, I mean, I’m doing the same thing. I’m learning more about economics and I’m reading Adam Smith and reading another one. I think I mentioned this to you before. I don’t remember. It’s a French paper translated to English by another author where he talks about it’s a simple lesson in economics. I’ll send you the link of the book. ⁓
Dan Kurdys (37:58) yeah, yeah, I’d love to read it. Yeah. There’s so many great sub
stacks now to pick up on like just people that, you know, riffing on economics. That’s pretty cool. I like it, but yeah, I don’t know. It’s like, there’s a lot of pressure on economics now of is AI going to kill the field or is it going to innovate and find a new path? But I think it still has a role to play as a discipline into the future.
Federico Ramallo (38:19) Right, right. mean, on sci-fi, they talk about this super intelligent agent that is going to, I think, going to manage the economy and kind of balance everything out. So I don’t know if we’re going towards that direction, but I find that interesting. So you’ve led cross-functional teams.
that spans data science, biology, commercial roles and more. What does a high-performance AI plus biology plus business team look like in your worldview?
Dan Kurdys (38:49) Yeah, I mean the best teams I’ve been a part of, most functional and high performing teams are united by a mission, not an org chart. It’s really, you know, coming together and finding people with the passion around the mission. It is incredibly powerful to motivate people beyond money, beyond status, beyond all that stuff when you have a shared mission and they can bring their whole selves to the work. I just…
I can’t speak profoundly enough about when that happens, how special a moment it is, and how work gets done so much more effectively when that’s all shared as like a foundation to the work. And once the mission is clear, the leader’s job isn’t to prescribe every step. When you have this kind of aligned mission that glues everybody together, you just define the outcomes that matter and then people move. People are motivated to move and hop in and get the work done.
They know why they’re doing something and they can, because they know the mission, they know what success looks like. And so their, creativity, the strengths all show up naturally. It’s not like you have to have this managerial like heavy discipline and stuff all the time. It’s they’re motivated by the mission. And so everybody’s bringing everything they can to, to make that happen. And so you just say, well, they, know, this, this timeframe, we’re going to focus on these outcomes. Let’s
let’s get to it. And I think when you have that mission glue, everybody gets to it. That’s when teams really work. So I mean, I don’t know that it changes much if you’re scientists or data scientists or business leader. It’s having that mission that’s shared and everybody rowing in the same direction.
Federico Ramallo (40:19) Right, right. And it becomes this symphony when you see it happening. It’s magic, right? Yeah. And also, well, what happened to me when I see that is that now it kind of goes around the circle. And now I have to step up my game because my team is doing so well that now I have to do better myself, right?
Probably it’s a self-imposed requirement, but I feel that I have to do that.
Dan Kurdys (40:45) that mutual accountability creeps in, It’s like you don’t wanna let them down. You’re part of the mission, they’re part of the mission, you don’t wanna let them down. Everybody gets tied into that and it is. It just starts reinforcing and compounding when that happens.
Federico Ramallo (40:58) Right, right. And even when I’m tired of, you know, of hard work, I still feel blessed of being tired of doing such an interesting and, you know, fun job, right?
Dan Kurdys (41:09) Yes.
Federico Ramallo (41:09) So, looking ahead in the future, if we sit down again in 10 years, what’s one concrete change in how we grow or eat plants that you will make? Yes, AI and CRISP really help the world keep up with a changing climate.
Dan Kurdys (41:22) think 10 years from now, I will imagine sitting at the dinner table with my daughters and laughing about the little inconveniences we used to accept. Like we talked about the things we forgot, like picking seeds out of our blackberry seeds out of our teeth or spitting cherry pits into our hands and stuff like that. think hopefully if we did our jobs, it’ll turn into one of those things that our kids just don’t even like maybe it’s a distant memory of something we used to do. Right. And
What I hope I can say is what made those fruits special? Like we kept the flavor, we kept the joy, we made the experience better, but we made them easier to love for kids, easier to grow for everybody. And I think it’s, if AI and gene editing did their job, food didn’t become like futuristic or unfamiliar. It just quietly got better, right? It’s just.
10 years from now we just all of sudden realize one day, yeah, these got a lot better. Farmers are making more money, families got fruits and vegetables that were delicious. And if my kids don’t think twice about it, but just eat more fruits and veggies, then we got it right.
Federico Ramallo (42:31) Right, right, and if spitless fruits becomes the standard nobody knows that they used to be that was not the case, right? That would be the dream, yeah Amazing So Dan, thank you very much for joining us today I mean we’re running out of time, but any final remarks before we wrap it up?
Dan Kurdys (42:39) Yep. That’s right.
really a pleasure to talk to you. I really enjoyed the conversation and the chance to share my passion for gene editing and AI and where I think food can go. And I hope you take away how important it is to me. And I’m doing this for my kids. And I really think it’s a special opportunity we have for agriculture and for food for the world.
Federico Ramallo (43:09) Amazing, Dan, thank you very much for joining us today. I’m looking forward to see where you and your team take partwise next. Thank you.
Dan Kurdys (43:16) All right, have
a good one.