What we talked about
In this insightful conversation, Dr. Carmen Román shares her journey from growing up in a poor neighborhood in Guadalajara to becoming a bicultural clinical psychologist with three decades of experience. Drawing from her practice in both Mexico and the United States, she offers a unique perspective on how cultural differences impact our approach to mental health, work-life balance, and family dynamics. Dr. Román discusses her experience with burnout that led to her specialization in helping others prevent and recover from it, and introduces her book “10% More Selfish” which promotes balanced self-care. She explains how Silicon Valley’s achievement-oriented culture often neglects true self-care and how finding purpose through helping others contributes more to happiness than pursuing accomplishments alone. With warmth and wisdom, Dr. Román illustrates how embracing both Mexican community values and American individualism can lead to a more fulfilled life.
Show notes
Dr. Carmen Román grew up in Polanquito, one of the poorest neighborhoods in Guadalajara, a bitterly ironic name given that Polanco in Mexico City is among the wealthiest. She almost became a software engineer; a friend dragging her to a psychology admissions office changed everything. She got in (sixty spots, nine hundred applicants), loved it immediately, built a thriving practice over fifteen years in Mexico, and then burned out completely. That crisis became the engine for everything that followed: the move to the U.S. without a word of English, starting a doctoral program from scratch because her Mexican license didn’t transfer, five years of Aikido training as part of a transpersonal psychology curriculum, and eventually a specialization in helping others recognize and recover from the very thing that had floored her.
What we covered
- Growing up in Polanquito, the poorest Polanco, how her parents acted as informal social workers in a neighborhood where police wouldn’t come, and how teenagers in the community would seek her out to share their deepest secrets before she had any clinical training
- Burning out after an overloaded practice in Mexico, full schedule, keynote bookings a year out, too easy and too fast, and how her body’s hard stop became the catalyst for uprooting entirely and moving to California
- Starting a U.S. psychology degree from zero because Mexican licensure didn’t transfer, and how returning to student status after fifteen years as a supervisor humbled her in exactly the way she needed
- Five years of Aikido practice as a required part of her transpersonal psychology program, and how the martial art’s flowing, receptive quality rewired her therapeutic style from goal-driven to patient, energy-matching work
- The stress-burnout continuum she teaches clients: manageable stress is useful, then anxiety arrives when that stress overwhelms, then depression signals a deeper stop, and burnout is the body’s final depletion of everything, physical, mental, emotional reserves alike
- Silicon Valley’s “accomplishing, accomplishing, accomplishing” culture as structurally incompatible with recovery, and the contrast with Mexican sobremesa, the unhurried time after a meal spent just talking to people, which she frames as culturally encoded prevention
- Navigating HIPAA-compliant practice with Latino families where a parent calling to book a session for their twenty-two-year-old is not overreach but cultural love, and how she threads that difference rather than simply enforcing the American rule
About Dr. Carmen Román
Dr. Carmen Román is a bilingual, bicultural clinical psychologist with three decades of experience spanning Mexico and the United States, founder of the nonprofit Emotions in Harmony, and author of 10% More Selfish. She specializes in burnout prevention and recovery, and works with individuals, couples, and bicultural families navigating the collision of American achievement culture and Latin American community values.
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-carmen-roman
- Website: https://emotionsinharmony.org
Episode 30 of the PreVetted Podcast.
Full transcript
Federico Ramallo (00:01.782) Welcome to Prevetted Podcast, where we spotlight extraordinary talent, shaping the way we work and live. Today, we’re joined by Dr. Carmen Roman. She’s a bilingual, bicultural clinical psychologist and the founder of the nonprofit Emotions in Harmony. Hello, Carmen. How are you doing today?
Carmen Roman, PhD (00:27.481) very good Federico and you.
Federico Ramallo (00:30.35) doing great.
So, you know, I can share a little bit more about your experience. You have three decades of clinical experience and two master’s degrees plus a PhD in psychology, right? So…
Carmen Roman, PhD (00:50.245) You can tell I love psychology.
Federico Ramallo (00:55.074) Yes, yes. I think it’s, for the audience, it’s very important to hear you because if you have all this experience in psychology, and that’s what we’re going to talk about, right? So you’re helping people to overcome anxiety, trauma, and depression, right? And also you’re helping people to prevent burnout, right?
Carmen Roman, PhD (00:56.592) So.
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:23.931) Yes, correct. Yes, I have been a psychologist since I started in college studying, since I was 18. And of course, I start practicing like three, four years later, like at 21 years old in Mexico. And I started actually as more or less a family therapist. I did a lot of family therapy. And then I moved in.
Federico Ramallo (01:26.552) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:53.883) to individual, to children, adults. And eventually I settled on couples therapy. I like a lot to do couples therapy and individuals, 18 years old and older. I abandoned a little bit the work with children. with families, I get to work with the entire family with children too. I did 15 years in Mexico.
of therapy. I work as a psychotherapist and teacher in psychology, in master’s degree and bachelor degrees programs. And then I got the curiosity of going to the United States for a particular program that I wanted in transpersonal psychology. And to my surprise, the license doesn’t translate to the United States. So I need to start from scratch again. So I needed to do another.
master and then the PhD to get the license. Yes.
Federico Ramallo (02:58.304) interesting. I understand that there are equivalences, right, that you can some, you know, some knowledge can be bad or you have to make a leveling exam, right? We’re saying is that you had to start from scratch.
Carmen Roman, PhD (03:05.21) Mm-hmm.
Carmen Roman, PhD (03:12.091) Not in psychology, at least not when I started. I don’t know now, but when I started, it was zero. It was just start. They value the bachelor degree, but that doesn’t give you a license. So I needed to go from zero. And that was good because it helps me to see psychology in many different ways.
Federico Ramallo (03:33.506) Wow.
Carmen Roman, PhD (03:41.359) perspectives and ways. think once we are like, by that time I was 15 years doing psychology and being a supervisor and teacher in Mexico, it humbled me to go and be a student again. It really humbled me because it’s like, I thought I knew. And it was learning new ways of being in transpersonal psychology is a lot of spirituality and they include
experiences, spiritual experiences or shamanism or we even have one year of Aikido, for example. They ask you to have yoga or Aikido because they believe in that institute, they believe that our body also informs who we are as a therapist. So I did five years of Aikido practice to be a psychologist.
It was fabulous,
Federico Ramallo (04:40.64) Really? Very interesting. It’s so much fun. I did Aikido for two or three years. And basically you can throw people out, You take their energy and it’s like boom. And from outside it looks like you’re playing, right? Or pretending, you know. But then, you know, it’s much more involved. Yeah.
Carmen Roman, PhD (04:49.839) is really.
Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (04:58.619) Yeah. Yeah.
Carmen Roman, PhD (05:05.261) is very involved and I think it gave me a very good perspective in psychotherapy because it gives me this calm when people are angry or irritated. It’s like, can elevate our orbit, we are calm, we can do it. I have been always a strong therapist. I have been very
Federico Ramallo (05:13.624) Really?
Carmen Roman, PhD (05:34.747) strong and have like goals, strong goals for my clients. But with Aikido, it was this flowing, know, this Japanese flowing of dancing until you are ready to get to these goals. It was really good addition to my practice.
Federico Ramallo (05:57.314) Right, right. I always use the analogy of fishing, right? If you pull too hard, you break the hook, right? And you lose a prey while they fish, you know, so you have to pull and let go, pull and let go, But if you let go too much, then it’s a dance.
Carmen Roman, PhD (05:58.565) Thank you.
Carmen Roman, PhD (06:05.615) Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Carmen Roman, PhD (06:14.222) It’s a dance.
Thank you.
Federico Ramallo (06:19.342) And what motivated you to get into psychology?
Carmen Roman, PhD (06:27.087) I think my parents were social workers without the title. My parents came from a very small town, a small village in Jalisco in Mexico. They came to the city, to Guadalajara. And in their little community, they were constantly helping other families and other couples. And now I will understand like case manager or a social worker. But back then,
It was extreme poverty. Nobody knew. I didn’t knew about the psychologist. I didn’t know that the services existed. police even didn’t want it to come into my neighborhood. So it was a very segregated neighborhood. So my parents did a lot of work providing water, providing whatever. And when I went into college, I wanted to be an engineer. Actually, I wanted to be a software engineer.
I was ready to apply and somebody, one of my friends was applying to psychology. And I asked her, what is psychology? And she said, you talk to people. And you listen to them and you help them to manage their emotions or something. say, I want to do that. I want to do that. I went and literally I took my application in paper and I said, I will go with you and just be there when you are applying. So I applied.
I got into the university, she didn’t. Yeah, it was very competitive. She didn’t make the cut. was like we applied like 900 people, 900 and something and only 60 got in. It was very competitive thing. But I got in and I loved it ever since the very first class. just love philosophy. We used to have philosophy and sociology.
Federico Ramallo (07:57.709) really? So she was inspiration but she didn’t make the cut.
Carmen Roman, PhD (08:23.387) and psychology classes and anthropology. It was very well-rounded program in my city in Guadalajara. So this is how I became a psychologist. And on the way, I learned what actually a psychologist meant.
Federico Ramallo (08:44.59) Right. In which…
In which neighborhood you grew up in Guadalajara?
Carmen Roman, PhD (08:54.585) In Guadalajara it’s called Polanco or Polanquito. Polanquito, is very paradoxical because in Mexico City, Polanco is one of the wealthiest neighborhoods. And in Guadalajara it was one of the poorest. So I grew up in Polanco, Guadalajara. In Polanquito. Yeah.
Federico Ramallo (08:59.107) Yes.
Federico Ramallo (09:16.31) Right, right, the poorer version of Polanco.
Carmen Roman, PhD (09:21.581) of Polanco, yeah. And I did a lot of listening to my neighbors. People will come, even when I was a teenager, people will come and tell me very deep things about them. So I probably have it always in my being. And it was for me very easy to become psychologist. So easy, Federico, that I grew good.
Federico Ramallo (09:24.93) Yeah.
Carmen Roman, PhD (09:50.715) and fast in my profession. And I think I became a little entitled about it. I thought it was me doing something excellent. And I thought it was, I could have full schedule. could travel. I could do keynote speaking. It was almost too easy for me until life taught me that it was not. It was something more to learn.
Federico Ramallo (10:01.907) You
Federico Ramallo (10:21.838) Right, right. That’s when you find out, you found out when you moved to the US, right?
Carmen Roman, PhD (10:23.099) Thank
Carmen Roman, PhD (10:29.657) I moved to the US after actually I burn out. I burn out myself completely. It was so hard. This is why I specialize in burnout now. Because I work really hard. I used to have as many clients as I wanted or travel or you can book a conference with me in a year because I was overbooked. And my body say that’s enough. And I completely crashed.
Federico Ramallo (10:30.467) or brief.
Carmen Roman, PhD (10:59.555) helped me to realize that I was not doing for myself a service. And a psychologist who doesn’t take care of themselves is not really that helpful. So I learned that I was not doing what I was preaching. And it was very, very deep impact about that. And then I took a rest and I said, probably I even need to leave.
Federico Ramallo (11:17.434) Carmen Roman, PhD (11:28.767) the country I wanted to learn something from other cultures, especially the transpersonal psychology and like, okay, time to go and learn something else.
Federico Ramallo (11:41.614) There is something humbling when you travel because you are in a very vulnerable place. You have no social network support, people that support you. You’re on your own. You’re in a different culture. There’s so many things that different. It’s very humbling.
Carmen Roman, PhD (11:54.235) Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (12:10.061) It’s very humbling. And then I came to the United States without knowing English with no English. So it was learning to communicate in different ways. Like you explain it beautifully. When you are out your own comfort zone, you are on your new resources. You need to exercise your knowledge and resources and everything and rely on people, the kindness of people. Yeah. So I got
I was very lucky in California to receive, to be well received.
Federico Ramallo (12:45.25) Right, Yeah, California is beautiful. I go to the Bay Area every month or so and I love it. I mean, it has a lot of good things, some not so good things, right? I decided to stay in Mexico to raise my son. So yeah, was not a current right decision, right? But I had the opportunity to move.
Carmen Roman, PhD (12:46.512) Mm-hmm.
Carmen Roman, PhD (13:04.317) really?
Federico Ramallo (13:15.31) to San Francisco, to San Jose, and I decided to stay. I’m actually living in Guadalajara. And you always wonder, did I make the right decision? Did I not? The pros and cons, right? Because it’s not easy, right? For me, it would be a great place to be, but…
Carmen Roman, PhD (13:24.925) wow.
Carmen Roman, PhD (13:36.987) this.
Federico Ramallo (13:44.31) I don’t know if it would be the best place for my son to be, right? So that’s why I decided to stay here.
Carmen Roman, PhD (13:51.343) You know, actually, Federico, this is a question that a lot of parents have now, and parents who are multicultural. Because it’s not a secret that many people is living in the United States or intend to live in the United States. And couples are asking themselves, if I take my son or my daughter or my children,
Federico Ramallo (13:57.667) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (14:18.939) to another culture, will they be as multicultural as California, for example, has to offer? And my answer is they will be with you. So by default, they will be multicultural. Because once we have it in our being, we transmit that.
Federico Ramallo (14:44.364) Yes, yes. Yeah, as I said, it wasn’t like a cut, and dry decision. So I see lot of benefits to being in California for raising a kid, a lot of cons, right? But as you say, the multiculturalism goes with us, right? Yes, yes. they are exposed to different things.
Carmen Roman, PhD (14:45.755) Mm-hmm.
Carmen Roman, PhD (14:52.987) Thank
Carmen Roman, PhD (15:05.218) Ask me this.
Federico Ramallo (15:13.154) regardless of the place where we live, right? I actually, I was living in, I grew up in Buenos Aires, right? In Montegrande, it’s a small town, little town, you know, similar to what you mentioned about Condesa, right? It was, sorry, Polanco, Polanco, I apologize. I was thinking about Condesa, yeah?
Carmen Roman, PhD (15:15.557) Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Carmen Roman, PhD (15:34.511) Olanko Polanko.
Yeah, were good on that.
Federico Ramallo (15:44.174) I made the wrong connection. So, Condes is another neighborhood in Mexico City that it’s very famous. Yeah, it’s fancy as well. So, when I grew up, I had cows a few miles from my house. So, we’re on the edge, similar to Mexico City, outside of Mexico City, the suburbs. So, the suburbs sounds fancy, but it’s more…
Carmen Roman, PhD (15:46.203) Another no code. That is fancy.
Federico Ramallo (16:13.87) the not so fancy area. So my vision was limited to because I was living in a small town of 40,000 people. They have the culture of a small town, but the problems of a big city because the city was a dorm city. So people would go to sleep there and work in the city.
everybody would be gossiping like small towns, a lot of the problems of small towns. So then eventually I got a job at Microsoft. I did my first startup at 16 and then eventually got a job at Microsoft. So all of that process changed my vision of the world a lot. So I think that traveling gives you that. Regardless of…
Carmen Roman, PhD (16:47.099) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (17:09.794) where you stay to live, right? If you travel, you see other places, right? Outside of the, you know, of the…
hotels, right? You have to go and see other people’s, know, cultures and lives, right? Rather than, you know, getting into these all-inclusive hotels, right? I’ve seen it in Mexico. You go to Puerto Vallarta. You go to Cancun. They have these beautiful places, but resorts, that’s what I was looking for. They have these beautiful resorts, but that’s not… You have to go to the old, old towns and, you know, just travel around to see, you know…
Carmen Roman, PhD (17:24.751) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (17:49.1) people living their lives and meeting them and talking with them, that opens your vision of the world much more.
Carmen Roman, PhD (17:59.801) Yes. Yes.
Federico Ramallo (18:03.662) So one of… yeah.
Carmen Roman, PhD (18:05.785) Let me wait, wait, wait before we proceed. Let me put my, this is an editing moment. Let me put my, let’s say my, to cut the notifications.
Federico Ramallo (18:22.53) Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (18:24.303) because I thought I did and apparently I didn’t. I think actually the backwards side I activated them.
Federico Ramallo (18:33.966) They’re so distracting, we have so many.
Carmen Roman, PhD (18:34.139) What will be the notifications? Focus, don’t disturb. Yeah, I think actually I turned them on instead of OK. Done. Back to business.
Federico Ramallo (18:47.022) you go.
Sounds good. So we were talking about the…
how traveling opens your eyes, right?
Carmen Roman, PhD (18:59.355) Thank
Federico Ramallo (19:01.644) I have a similar analogy. I like to drive motorcycles and do long, distant travel. I used to do that more. Now I’m doing it less because I’d go out with my family. But the idea is when you go on a motorcycle, you’re exposed to everything, whether if it’s hot, if it’s cold. And then.
Carmen Roman, PhD (19:18.619) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (19:29.198) You can have a very expensive motorcycle, but when you are in a car, you are within a safe space. You’re within the frame. You see everything through a glass. So that gives you a sense of safety and entitlement. Because when you ask for directions, you lower down your window. And now you’re seeing people from the top.
and you have this space that protects you, right? Ish, right? And if you have a, car, you know, talks a lot about you, right? So people see you in a, you know, big truck or whatever, and then, you know, that projects who you are, right? More than in a motorcycle. You can have an expensive motorcycle, but still, you’re sitting down, you’re sitting down so you’re looking,
up people, right? Because you’re down, right? And that situation of classism based on the vehicle doesn’t happen as much, right? Plus you’re exposed because you’re there. You don’t have a frame. You don’t have a glass protecting you, right? And you’re in a vulnerable position because you don’t have any…
Carmen Roman, PhD (20:56.517) I think.
Federico Ramallo (20:57.536) And you don’t have food, you don’t have water, or very minimal, right? So you depend on every time that you go, depend on the people in the town to support you, right? So you have to be extra nice, right? Because of that situation, So that way I met really great people, right? Much more than when I’m…
Carmen Roman, PhD (21:12.941) Yes.
Federico Ramallo (21:25.998) traveling in a car or when I go to resort, right? Because you have these layers of protection that doesn’t allow you to deeply connect with what’s going on.
Carmen Roman, PhD (21:37.327) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (21:38.478) And the same applies with, we met one Japanese traveler that was traveling in bicycle. And he was sleeping in the back of a gas station.
He was doing, he left from the US and we met him right before Puerto Vallarta on I-5 and he was just there. So we talked a lot, right? Because he was getting into this vulnerable place and that for me is admirable.
Carmen Roman, PhD (22:03.461) Uh-huh.
Carmen Roman, PhD (22:14.053) Mm-hmm.
Carmen Roman, PhD (22:17.413) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, this is, I have, I am very grateful of the multicultural experiences that I have. That, I put myself in the position, could be, yeah. Or the way I approach my burnout, yeah. Because you are like, OK, this is time for changing, changing something deeply. Yeah. And.
I don’t wish burnout for anybody. It’s so awful. But at the same time, it’s also a harsh stop in the way you do or the way you move or whatever you do. It’s your bodies. I think our bodies has this wisdom to say that’s enough. And you mentioned at the beginning, I work with
depression and anxiety and stress. And for me, it’s a continuum. Stress is the beginning and a well-managed stress. Stress is desirable because we want that kind of stress. When you go into a motorcycle trip, you will have new things to face. And that is stressful and that’s good. Control stress, let’s say.
Federico Ramallo (23:18.317) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (23:45.453) or manageable stress. So if you learn to manage your stress, it’s fine. And you will learn to expose yourself to stress, fine. But sometimes we get overwhelmed and anxiety comes in. Or we get that loneliness or that sense of loss. And it’s overwhelming too, and depression comes in.
is a stop in your life. And siding depression is a heavy calling to say, hey, what are you doing? And then after that comes burnout, I think.
Federico Ramallo (24:27.897) So
Carmen Roman, PhD (24:28.227) will notice the depletion of everything.
Federico Ramallo (24:32.632) Turns out it’s the body tapping out and saying, I am done.
Carmen Roman, PhD (24:38.107) Yeah.
Federico Ramallo (24:39.196) of carrying so much stress.
Carmen Roman, PhD (24:42.063) Mm-hmm. Yes.
Federico Ramallo (24:45.678) and
What are the recommendations that you give to people how to overcome burnout? Or what are the recommendations you suggest to not overcome, but first dealing with them, dealing with burnout?
Carmen Roman, PhD (25:02.775) is I think the first thing that I ask them is to acknowledge that this happened. Because normally people who experience burnout are the more, how do you say, the starudos in English, more stubborn. Stubborn, yeah. We are, with our personality, yeah. So we are the most stubborn people and the most difficult to recognize.
Federico Ramallo (25:19.854) stubborn, yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (25:32.503) that this is overpassing my limits. So first of all, recognizing that we have limits, social, physical, mental, we have limits. And two, it’s not in our head. It’s happening. Yeah, I’m not inventing that. It’s happening. It’s why I’m so tired, because you work 80 hours this week. Yeah. Or why I am sleepy, because you didn’t sleep well during the week for a
working or doing or whatever you were doing. So recognizing, addressing symptoms one by one. And what I mean by that is addressing insomnia or addressing the tiredness or addressing the lack of food or nutrition. It will require different tools and systems. It’s not one response to everybody. It’s like.
Do I need to address this my insomnia? Or do I need to address this my lack of nourishment, physical nourishment in my body? Or my lack of rest? Or my over-stimuli in the electronics or whatever it is? So make really a note of what you overdid it and then address that particular. And the other recommendation is you don’t need to stop completely. I mean, your body stop and it’s crashing.
You can allow yourself to do some one hour a day or two hours a day of your activity, but being very mindful about the energy that you are consuming. I was talking a couple of days ago with a person who is CEO of two companies. And he said, in one of the sessions, I told him, this is
Federico Ramallo (27:23.682) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (27:28.709) This is probably a lot. This is stressful. And then the next session he came all stressed and he said, but it’s not grown. I am doing something good. So he was stressed that I was asking him to stop completely. And I said, I’m sure it’s good. It’s acknowledge that this is stressful. Acknowledge that you need to take time off.
Acknowledge that it’s OK to go one day for the beach and not do anything for one day. Acknowledge that you need that.
It’s okay.
Federico Ramallo (28:07.404) Right. I used to think, you know,
Sleeping is for the weak, so I don’t need to sleep. I have time to rest when I’m dead. I have so much to do. I mean, kind of joking, with that idea of I have so much to do that I’ll do and do and do. And I’ve been appreciating more and more quality rest so I could do more the next day.
Carmen Roman, PhD (28:21.787) Yeah. Cheers.
Carmen Roman, PhD (28:31.759) Mm-hmm.
Carmen Roman, PhD (28:40.761) And the thing is, well, you work probably for a Silicon Valley company. The Silicon Valley companies are not going to motivate you to rest. It’s not their job. Their job is to squeeze whatever you have in your brain. And I live out of Silicon Valley companies. I work with a lot of engineers in Silicon Valley. And I appreciate the work that they do.
Federico Ramallo (28:51.916) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (29:07.941) Your company is not necessarily going to understand that you have a burnout situation. Not in the United States. Probably there are other parts of the world where they acknowledge quicker. And they actually do something about it. The United States is not there yet. And the culture in the United States in general is not conducive for resting in general.
Federico Ramallo (29:21.763) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (29:38.275) It’s doing, doing, doing, accomplishing, accomplishing, accomplishing. The more we get into a crisis mode, the more we want to accomplish. And this is where my Mexican, I love my Mexican part of my culture. The Mexican part is like, just rest, fun, go for a walk, do something, sit in the party for five hours, talk to people, travel. So it’s sobremesa, have a time after your meal.
Federico Ramallo (30:01.889) you
Carmen Roman, PhD (30:07.247) talking to people.
is a little more preventive, if you will.
Federico Ramallo (30:15.342) When I talk with people in the Bay Area in particular, but I think it applies to everyone in the US. Time is money, so you have to do, do, do, right? And when people ask me, how is Mexico? And I say, when you are driving around in the Bay Area, everybody’s doing something.
and you go to the suburbs and they are boring because nothing is happening. You see streets and streets of empty empty streets. When you go to Mexico, it’s a little bit chaotic, but it’s a continuous party going on on the streets most of the time. You see the taqueria, you see
there’s somebody having a party and they do it outside, right? And then you’re driving and you have to kind of squeeze around that, right? So it’s chaotic, but also everywhere you go, you see life, you see people having fun, you see sometimes people fighting, you see all of that, it’s a life, And when I’m driving in the Bay Area, it’s so boring, it’s so…
And then you go to specific places and then, okay, the activity is happening in some specific places. But again, it’s so compartmentalized that I find that very strange.
Carmen Roman, PhD (32:03.311) Yes, yes, and in Mexico you will be more likely to be included. They will include you whether they know you or they don’t know you. Yes.
Federico Ramallo (32:09.964) Yes. Yes it.
Federico Ramallo (32:15.576) Yeah, they say, tu casa, mi casa, your house. My house, your house, Yeah, it’s a saying, but it’s also a meaning, right? They’re opening your house to you.
Carmen Roman, PhD (32:20.622) Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (32:27.963) Yes. We just actually, my husband and I just recently moved to Vallarta. This is what we are moving right now. We are moving to Puerto Vallarta. And the reason is we want to recover that life. We want to recover that balance in life. And of course, we have bought our businesses in the United States and of course, everything will be
Federico Ramallo (32:38.892) nice.
Carmen Roman, PhD (32:57.487) back and forth probably, yeah. But it is important to have something more than just being in the Bay Area working.
Federico Ramallo (33:11.49) Yes, mean for work I think it’s great. I usually, when I go there, I go in work mode. So it’s me and just doing business development. But I know that when I come back to Mexico, I have my friends and my family and everything is much more personal, right? One of the things that I noticed in the US is that
Carmen Roman, PhD (33:18.624) Thank
Carmen Roman, PhD (33:32.804) Thank
Carmen Roman, PhD (33:38.021) It’s.
Federico Ramallo (33:41.858) The kids leave the family household when they are 18 and they go to study at universities and whatnot, right? Most of them has a lot of narcissistic, self-absorbed lifestyle for a while, right? Until they graduate and then they start taking professional work, responsible professional work, right? So they kind of see it that way. All the excess happen within college and then when they move.
Carmen Roman, PhD (34:05.55) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (34:12.338) they graduate, now they are fully responsible adults, right? Or that’s kind of the expectations, right, that they have. So the values of the kids are defined by the college, not by the family, right? And then the family grows, you know, strange, right? They grow apart, right? It’s like, I have my parents, but they are in Florida or wherever, right? Florida is the, you know, where most of the…
Carmen Roman, PhD (34:18.959) That’s the expectation,
Carmen Roman, PhD (34:34.767) Okay.
Federico Ramallo (34:41.984) All people stay, right? That’s kind of the, you know, in the culture is kind of like that, right? So, but in Mexico, you know, kids don’t leave the house until they’re married, most of them, right? In Argentina, so I’m from Argentina, moved here 17 years ago.
Carmen Roman, PhD (34:57.253) most of them, yeah.
Federico Ramallo (35:04.534) So in Argentina, it’s a little bit less racist than that, that you move out earlier before you get married. But still, you are very close to your family. So I’m wondering how this difference in culture, how that impact your
practice in Mexico and in the US.
Carmen Roman, PhD (35:37.465) Of course, it’s important to notice that we are doing generalizations just for the sake of doing them. There are families in the US, culture families, that they do very good job about taking care of themselves. But most of it is a lot of work. And my work gets, or the family that I work with, get impacted by
getting drawn into this need to accomplish something. Mexican families or Latino-American families that move to the United States or to the Bay Area or California, they get absorbed into this accomplishment. And then they tend to question their values. Or they tend to not trust their values anymore. And then their children are growing and they don’t know.
if they should impose their values or the new values of the culture. So it gets this clash of values. And for me as a therapist, it’s important to notice that in families, to give the place to the parents, for the parents to start bringing their values back. Like some parents, for example, they call
they call and they say, I do an appointment for my 20-year-old boy? And in the HIPAA compliant, I know you are familiar with HIPAA compliant. In the HIPAA compliant world, technically, I cannot answer because it’s an adult and the person should call himself or themselves to do the appointment. And the Latino culture is just impossible to make them understand that because it’s my boy.
Federico Ramallo (37:13.474) Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (37:31.483) So I told to the mother or the father, whoever calls. And then I told to them, and I say, why you are worried? And we spend time talking. Will you do me a favor? Do you think your son or your daughter wants to therapy, wants to do therapy? Oh, they will. If I do the appointment, they will come. Do you think they will do it? Because if so, it’s important for them to call.
Legally, I cannot give you the appointment, but let them call and we figure out from there. And they still want to be knowing and paying the session and all of this. They still want to be extremely involved. And sometimes we just allow the family. If the young person wants, we allow the entire family into the session. That’s OK. Sometimes I teach them to say, no, mom, you need to stay. It’s my session. So it’s a lot of.
going with the culture, but respecting that need from the parents. And then the parents say, well, why I will not worry? My boy is only 22-year-old, and it’s not OK to go that far in the college. And somebody in San Jose told me, my daughter got admitted into Stanford. And from San Jose to Stanford, it’s an hour and a half with traffic. But we are not letting her go.
Federico Ramallo (38:55.672) Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (38:59.759) because she’s leaving the house. So it was a process to help that family to understand the importance of that kind of education. So I say, you know, some parents, very, very worried parents that are kings or presidents of other countries, they need to let their children come to Stanford. So probably you can do the same with your daughter. So how you can make it work. it was a lot of.
process. But this is how my work gets into the therapy session is to meet them, to meet the generations. Or sometimes in the family session I will have in the couple, sometimes couple session I will have people who don’t speak the same language. we need to, sometimes my job is translating literally.
in the session. Yeah. So it has been really enriching to have these experiences with these families.
Federico Ramallo (40:09.55) Right, I’ve seen that happen a lot that mothers get so involved on their children’s life. And I think that there is some value in it. If the kids stay longer in the family, the values and the support is stronger. But then on the other hand, the kids need to grow and make their own decisions and go
Carmen Roman, PhD (40:30.181) Mm-hmm.
Carmen Roman, PhD (40:35.451) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it is a dance again. It’s a dance of allowing families to embrace both cultures or to embrace the number of cultures they are in. And personally, has an impact in my life too. I am married to an American guy, to complete San Jose born guy. So I
I need to play that with ourselves too. We are a multicultural couple and we bring a lot of multicultural aspects to our couple, to our relationship. So it has been really eye-opening to work with the families and with the culture in the Bay Area.
Federico Ramallo (41:26.722) Yeah, I find that in the Bay Area, it’s more individualistic than Mexico, right? People are more self-absorbed, right?
Carmen Roman, PhD (41:34.628) It could be yes.
Thank
Federico Ramallo (41:39.342) It’s hard to make friends compared to Mexico.
Carmen Roman, PhD (41:43.952) Yes.
Federico Ramallo (41:45.4) There’s also the age difference, when I was 20, it was easier to make friends, now I’m 40, it’s hard to make friends everywhere, right? Because my values are know, are rigid, I guess, right?
Carmen Roman, PhD (41:57.221) Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (42:03.663) And also the young generations, they will make friends in high school, in middle school, high school, and college. And they will make friends for life. Because once you are separated from your family, your college friends becomes your family sometimes. What I see in new generation and younger generations now is that the pandemic totally mess up with that.
So in the pandemic, for college students, was harder to make friends if they were doing only classes online. And some professions are harder than others to learn how to mingle and do friends. So some sessions, we really spend time literally working on how the person can make new friends. Like step number one.
do that, stand over to until they actually develop some kind of new relationships because a friendship takes a long time but some new relationships. So it tends to be more individualistic. It values individualistic assets. Yeah, it values performance or focus or being able to accomplish on your own.
that can be diminishing for your life if you don’t pay attention to balance your life.
Federico Ramallo (43:43.544) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (43:45.177) It can be very, very damaging.
Carmen Roman, PhD (43:50.575) Yeah. Engineers, don’t know, software engineers tend to have a lot of trouble socializing. Because for software engineers, because they also tend to work hard with computers. Which they can, and computers can be fun. So sometimes you don’t need friends, especially with the new computers, with the new technologies.
Federico Ramallo (43:59.65) Yes, it’s hard for software engineers.
Carmen Roman, PhD (44:20.771) So software engineers, not only from the US, but from many cultures, they tend to have challenges to socialize.
Federico Ramallo (44:31.852) We care more about things than people.
Carmen Roman, PhD (44:36.987) Or pets.
Federico Ramallo (44:38.35) And it’s a very, not individualistic, but a very lonely activity, right? Because it’s you and the computer, right? And you’re building stuff, but it’s just you and the computer, right? So yeah. I think I mentioned this before, I’m an introvert by nature, but push myself to become extroverted, right? And it was this moment where I was like, if I…
Carmen Roman, PhD (44:43.651) I think. Yes. Yeah.
Federico Ramallo (45:07.566) If I don’t go out and talk with people, then I am missing out all the things that I could do, right? All the things that I could accomplish, you know, and grow and whatnot. So it was, but it was a conscious decision and a conscious continuous effort that I had to do, you know. So, so yeah, I agree that engineers, you know, we are, it’s hard for us to talk with people.
Carmen Roman, PhD (45:27.141) Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (45:36.781) Uh-huh, uh-huh. And this is part of the profession, so it’s harder. It’s a more conscious effort to do this balance.
Federico Ramallo (45:48.012) Right. And you also talk about self-consciousness, right? Is that part of getting out of the burnout?
Carmen Roman, PhD (46:00.037) Yes, actually I did publish a book. I just published a book last year about self care. It’s called 10 % More Selfish, 10 % más egoista in Spanish. And that has opened a lot of conversations with people who have read the book. It has been a good experience. I co-authored the book with a friend in Mexico City. And the aim is…
Federico Ramallo (46:26.521) very nice
Carmen Roman, PhD (46:30.309) to help people to go back and prioritize themselves, at least 10%. Because something that you have been mentioning is this American culture is about being individualistic or self-focused, but not necessarily paying attention to self. It’s different. Like, I can be self-focused playing video games all day long. I can be self-focused.
Federico Ramallo (46:48.643) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (47:00.379) I can be focused on being in the computer all day long, producing something, know, make a robot to do something. But that doesn’t mean I am taking care of myself. Doesn’t mean I am paying attention to or prioritizing myself. Or I can be really self-oriented thinking I need the best, I need the best brands, I need the best car, I need the best house.
That doesn’t mean taking care of yourself. So this is why we wrote, what does it really mean to pay attention to your needs? What are your needs? What does it to write your story and rewrite your story? So to pay attention to your story and make conscious effort to rewrite it. What does it mean to, we talked one chapter about phenomenology.
Federico Ramallo (47:54.008) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (47:58.341) example, what does it to observe the phenomenon and live it as it is, not trying to change it, not trying to… Like you were saying, when you walk, when you drive in the Mexico streets, it’s chaos. It is what it is. Embrace it and then live with it. And in the US, we are…
Federico Ramallo (48:22.85) Right.
Carmen Roman, PhD (48:27.031) race to understand I can change it especially if I have the money I can change it I can make people cheer up and don’t do noise because it’s disturbing me yeah so
Federico Ramallo (48:40.922) Right, it’s more of individualistic, but not self-aware Yes, and it’s a it’s more of a rat race right I I’m suffering now, but it doesn’t matter because I’m getting the promotion or I’m getting more money in the future
Carmen Roman, PhD (48:45.071) Mm-hmm. Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (48:52.741) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (49:01.742) Whatever I’m suffering now, it’s worthwhile because I’m going to get more money in the future.
Carmen Roman, PhD (49:08.557) Uh-huh. So this is what we are trying to prevent.
So don’t get that far on that. This is why we put only 10 % because if we say, let’s go and be selfish, people will say, it’s not for me. I don’t want that. And if we say only 10%, what about 10 % of self-care? OK, I can maybe do that.
Federico Ramallo (49:34.254) Right, right. you know, going back to the Mexican families or the Latino families, right? And I think the Latino families that I speak in, that I met in the Bay Area, they have the same culture of family first, the moms are very involved on their kids’ life, And usually when I talk to those kids, right, I tell them, you you need to set boundaries, right? A little bit more boundaries.
for yourself, right? Don’t let your mom book your doctor’s appointment. You should do it, And say, mom, I love you, but please let me do this, right? And mostly as a friendly advice rather than anything else. what you’re saying, it’s being a little bit more selfish because the…
Carmen Roman, PhD (50:11.739) you
Carmen Roman, PhD (50:22.907) Yes.
Federico Ramallo (50:32.583) That way allows you to set boundaries. I don’t want this because whatever. So yeah, I think that the over, if you go from 10 to 100 % of selfishness, that extreme becomes a negative. Because if you’re thinking about yourself all the time,
Carmen Roman, PhD (50:39.172) Mm-hmm.
Carmen Roman, PhD (50:55.557) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (51:01.186) that’s indistinguishable from suffering. And that’s also not good.
Carmen Roman, PhD (51:08.581) That’s also not good, yeah. So this is what I have been doing. I have been writing about that and presenting workshops about it or do book presentations or something lately about it. And just promoting that balance, that work-life balance. This is what it is.
Federico Ramallo (51:28.534) Right, right, very interesting. We’ll share the links of your book at the bottom of the notes so people can read it.
Carmen Roman, PhD (51:29.583) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Carmen Roman, PhD (51:35.151) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (51:46.498) How can you, I mean, the other part that I’ve seen is people are obsessing over themselves and their mental state, And that’s, know, that has so many negative consequences, right? How can you find that balance?
Carmen Roman, PhD (52:13.423) I think I see this self-care as a continuum. And when you neglect yourself so long, it will be almost natural that then you will go to the opposite. You will care for yourself too much. But it’s this inner sense of balance. So at the beginning, it will be a natural movement. But I will say, when you neglect yourself and then you over-
care for yourself, it’s not healthy either way. So you need to figure out how to get in the middle. Because I neglected myself for so long, now I cannot even go to work. I cannot even relate to people. I cannot because I have this back pain, or I have a car accident, or whatever. And now I am only about me. And now they’re obsessed with.
I need to follow the doctor’s orders and I need to have a strict diet and I need to blah, blah, blah, blah. And I say, yes, but at the same time, just don’t forget who you are too. Don’t forget that you enjoy some part of your work or you enjoy socializing or you enjoy something else. So this is how I call for balance. Going to the opposite is not healthy.
Federico Ramallo (53:40.93) Yeah, I used to neglect myself. Then I focused more on myself. And then what worked for me is to, you know, also…
Carmen Roman, PhD (53:48.667) I
Federico Ramallo (53:57.454) have the duties of the family and the duties of the community. Maybe that is not a duty because it’s a self-imposed duty, I guess. But.
Carmen Roman, PhD (54:09.168) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (54:14.562) but having the responsibility of a child that changed, know, forced me to mature a lot, Because now it’s not me, now I have somebody else to take care of, right? That it’s so vulnerable and, know, and then…
Carmen Roman, PhD (54:21.211) Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (54:25.338) Mm-hmm.
Federico Ramallo (54:35.19) know, eventually doing something similar with the community, Like I’m running an off-road community, I’m helping people, I have a company, helping people get a better life, a better job, we’re able to give them salary increases, And seeing how they change their life and, you know, it’s a responsibility, in a way it’s a burden, right?
But it also gives me a purpose, right? A purpose to go out there because now I have all these people to take care of.
Carmen Roman, PhD (55:18.937) Actually, research in happiness shows that people who were achieving something, their goals, like we told before, people who have their goals and achieve their goals achieve certain level of happiness. But people who have somebody to take care for or people who were doing something for somebody else score higher in happiness.
And because they feel that sense of purpose, because they feel that sense. Because when we do something for others, we also get connection. We also get paid. Yeah. We pay by connection, by interaction, by being somebody, some mentor for someone or something. So those kind of people score higher in happiness. For me, working toward happiness, working toward equanimity, joy.
Happiness per se is not a state that we want. I don’t want to be happy all the time. I want chaos. I want also to feel sad or, you know, content or upset or frustrated about something. That matisse of experiences is what makes me human, more human, yeah. But I want to know that route to get happy and…
and to work and visit it quite often. I want to do that. I just don’t want to be stuck on that because that will be a fake happiness. Nobody is in the happy land forever. So this is why doing something, having a purpose, is more enriching life.
Federico Ramallo (56:55.15) Right.
Federico Ramallo (57:06.03) Yes, yes, and you can be sad of a situation. Somebody, a loved one can die and you can be sad because of that. But you can be overall happy because you have a fulfilling life, right? So happiness is not, you mentioned Puerto Vallarta, it’s not…
Carmen Roman, PhD (57:15.397) Mm-hmm.
Thank
Carmen Roman, PhD (57:21.603) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Federico Ramallo (57:32.824) drinking margaritas in the beach in Puerto Vallarta, right? Because that sounds lively for, you that sounds great for five minutes, but then becomes boring and then becomes hellish, you know, because you have no purpose. You have nothing to do, right? Now, that’s nice for a day or two or week and whatever, right? For some time, it’s nice, right? But then coming back and doing something that has purpose, right? That it’s fulfilling on the long.
but also it gives you immediate pleasure, right? You’re doing something that you enjoy doing, but also has a significant purpose.
Carmen Roman, PhD (58:13.199) Yes, yes, yeah. So this is my work in general about.
Federico Ramallo (58:21.762) Very nice, very nice. I always talk, you know, I’m more on the technology side, I talk about technology a lot. And I think it’s refreshing to be able to speak more about people and how people can have fulfilling and enriching lives, right?
Carmen Roman, PhD (58:22.991) Mm-hmm.
Carmen Roman, PhD (58:46.821) Yeah, yeah. Yes.
Federico Ramallo (58:49.016) So I think it’s amazing what you’re doing,
Carmen Roman, PhD (58:51.813) Thank you, Federico. And thank you for the opportunity to be here in your podcast.
Federico Ramallo (58:58.616) Yeah, absolutely. Happy to have you and I’m looking forward to learn more about what you’re doing. I’ll read your book when I have time. I’m finishing writing my book. I’m co-authoring a book about creativity. So I have that priority. After I finish that, I’ll read your book. Yeah, I find it very interesting.
Carmen Roman, PhD (59:22.331) Excellent.
Federico Ramallo (59:27.922) I think I mentioned it before, the call that I’ve been learning more about psychology and people because for me, the way that I see it is it’s a machine that I don’t understand, right? Because I’m used to understanding machines, right? I would go and see how an engine works and a car works and a computer, right?
Carmen Roman, PhD (59:47.419) Yes.
Yeah.
Federico Ramallo (59:57.294) for me having that curiosity of understanding. I know it’s not a machine, understanding the…
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:00:01.979) But we are very mysterious and interesting human beings. This humanity is very interesting. Yeah. Even though we want to be machines sometimes.
Federico Ramallo (01:00:08.792) Yes.
Federico Ramallo (01:00:12.61) Yes, yes. So thank you.
Yes, we want to be heartless machines, but that doesn’t work, right? Not heartless, but emotionless, right? And that doesn’t work, right? If you’ve seen Doctor Who, they have the Darleks. Darleks are an alien race that basically used to be humans, and then they got rid of all the…
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:00:24.155) That was in Quark.
Federico Ramallo (01:00:46.23) non-practical things for humans. They took the brain and then they put it inside a machine, which is the enemy of Doctor Who. So they are emotionless, they are relentless, and they got rid of the human body because it was a limitation for them. I find it funny because they have the, one of the weapons is a
bathroom and clogger, right? So, you know, so that’s one of the arms and the other one is a laser that shoots lasers, right? But anyway, it’s hilarious, you know, because it’s a show from the 50s, from the 1950s, so they kind of, you know, kept that theme of low budget, you know, enemies, right? So anyway.
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:01:17.913) Yeah.
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:01:43.299) huh.
Federico Ramallo (01:01:44.94) But they have that idea, right? And all the issues that it comes with, right? And of course, Doctor Who, you know, tries to bring them to embrace their emotions.
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:01:57.189) Yes.
Federico Ramallo (01:01:58.606) Yeah. So thank you very much, Carmen, for being here. I appreciate it. I know we went a little bit over the time. I apologize. And I’m looking forward to see what you’re doing next.
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:02:01.179) Yes.
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:02:08.463) fine.
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:02:12.005) Yeah, it was really nice. I really enjoyed this conversation. And I hope that people who get to watch this video enjoy as much as we did.
Federico Ramallo (01:02:21.016) Yes, yes, that would be nice.
Carmen Roman, PhD (01:02:22.127) Yes, hope so. Well, bye for now, Federico.
Federico Ramallo (01:02:27.406) Thank you.