What we talked about
David Dubinsky leads the Pomeroy Recreation and Rehabilitation Center in San Francisco, a true community benefit organization open seven days a week, from early morning to late evening. He explains how Pomeroy serves multiple groups in one shared space: around 225 adults with developmental disabilities who come daily for classes, community, and work support; about 85 children, many with autism, who arrive after school for extra learning and behavioral support; and the broader community through a warm, salt based pool and a full size gym. David shares how the center runs like a community college with multiple classes per day, while also offering rehabilitation and swim programs that benefit seniors, families, and infants.
Show notes
David Dubinsky describes a moment on a San Francisco street when a homeless man noticed mud on his pants and walked over with a rag to help clean it, without being asked. Dubinsky says he had not even noticed the man standing behind him, and that single encounter changed how he moves through the world and how he talks about empathy with his 156-person staff. That kind of story is central to how he leads Pomeroy, a community center where infants learn to swim before they can walk and where children with the most difficult behaviors in their schools tend to settle once they are no longer the only one who is different.
What we covered
- Pomeroy’s infant water safety program runs as an eight-week sequence in a 92-degree, salt-water pool. By the end, babies as young as seven or eight months can swim to the wall and find their way to the exit on their own. Dubinsky’s logic is that a child who learns this before age one will never panic at the edge of a neighbor’s pool, and the warm, non-chlorinated water means even infants with sensitive skin can participate comfortably.
- Pomeroy receives children from 32 San Francisco schools, including some who are described by their teachers as the three most difficult kids in the building. Teachers visit and ask how the staff manages all of them together. Dubinsky’s answer is simple: when the children arrive, they are no longer the special ed kids or the different ones. They are just kids, surrounded by others who are also somewhat different, and the pressure disappears.
- Dubinsky draws a careful distinction between integration and peer community. He notes that just as seniors sometimes prefer to be at a senior center playing poker with their peers, people with developmental disabilities also benefit from environments where no one is judging them. Both things, diversity and peer belonging, have value, and pretending one replaces the other misses the point.
- A woman at Pomeroy who uses a wheelchair, is nonverbal, and has no financial resources or titles has what Dubinsky calls the most infectious smile he has ever encountered. When she is not there, people notice. He uses her as the clearest example he has that value does not require credentials, communication, or standing, only presence and the willingness of others to pay attention.
- His closing framework for anyone who wants to live with more empathy is a single instruction: learn to listen. Not to hear, to listen. He describes listening as trying to understand someone at the same level they are communicating, which means setting aside biases about appearance, language, pronouns, or tattoos long enough to receive what the person is actually saying.
- He cites Mother Teresa’s phrase, “if you can’t feed a thousand, feed one”, as the philosophy that shapes how he thinks about impact as he finishes his career. The person in front of you might go on to affect a thousand others, and you will never know. That uncertainty is not a reason to hesitate. It is the entire point.
About David
David Dubinsky is the CEO of the Pomeroy Recreation and Rehabilitation Center in San Francisco, a role he has held since 2016 after more than 35 years in nonprofit leadership. Under his leadership, Pomeroy has expanded services, grown financial reserves, raised wages, and upgraded facilities while serving children through seniors, including a large community of adults with developmental disabilities.
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daviddubinsky
- Website: http://www.prrcsf.org
Episode 121 of the PreVetted Podcast.
Full transcript
Federico Ramallo (00:00) Welcome back to the pre-Vered podcast where we spotlight extraordinary people and remarkable talent reshaping our world. Today we’re joined by David Dubinsky, CEO of the Pomeroy Recreation and Rehabilitation Center in San Francisco. David has spent 35 plus years in nonprofit leadership with more than 25 years at the senior executive level.
David Dubinsky (00:16) Thank
Federico Ramallo (00:26) He’s led strategic and tactical planning across multiple states, invested deeply in staff development, and built a reputation for steady, values-driven leadership. Since becoming CEO at Pomeroy in 2016, the organization has expanded services, grown reserves, increased wages and benefits, and continued major facility upgrades, all while serving children through seniors, including the intellectual and development
disability community. David, welcome to the show.
David Dubinsky (00:58) Glad to be here for Enrico. Looking forward to our discussion.
Federico Ramallo (01:02) I’m honored to have you here today. ⁓ So for people that meeting you for the first time, how do you describe your work today?
David Dubinsky (01:04) Thank you.
Well, we, Pomeroy Center is a true community benefit organization. You know, a lot of times we hear people say CBO, what is that? But we serve the community where we are. We, as you mentioned, we have about 225 adults that come here every day, adults with developmental disabilities. They come here and we do a lot of things. Some come here and they go out to the community to work. Some come here and start their day and they,
They stay here. We offer classes. We run almost like a community college. We offer eight to 10 different classes a day. Some people come here just to be with their friends in a community setting. In the afternoon, we welcome about 85 children. Most of those have autism from San Francisco public schools. These are kids that
need extra learning, need extra help. And they all descend here in the afternoon, right about the time our adults are leaving, the kids come, the energy level goes up again. Just when you need it, it’s late in the afternoon, instead of a cup of coffee, you got school buses coming. Then we also have a warm water salt-based pool, almost Olympic size that serves the entire community.
I want to say mostly seniors use the pool, people that are rehabbing from knee replacement, replacement, arthritis, things like that. But we also teach infant and children water safety classes, swim classes here as well. So, and one of the main reasons we do that is we’re able to compete very well because of the warm water with all the city pools and everybody else because
Parents love to put their six month old in a warm water rather than dumping them in an 80 degree pool at the Y and the kids are screaming. Here they come, it’s like their bath temperature, they have fun, they learn how to swim, most importantly. And so we believe that kids that come here six months, eight months, year old will never drown in their neighbor’s swimming pool because they’re learning how to respect and
not fear water and not panic in the water at a very young age. And it’s funny to see a lot of children swimming before they can even walk. So, and then, you know, during the weekend we’re open to, we have a full-size gym and we open that up to, we have a Asian basketball youth league here. We have a basketball program for seniors. So, you know, this place,
Palmory Center is open seven days a week and it’s pretty busy from seven in the morning till ten at night every day. so it’s truly a community, a benefit organization benefits thousands of families every week.
Federico Ramallo (04:01) Amazing, amazing. I think that security by obscurity, know, telling kids to stay away from the water pool just so they’re safe, I think is the wrong approach. I think that the right approach is to let them expose them to danger in a safe and supervised manner so that way they, you know, if they’re alone, they know how to, you know, how to manage around the pool, right?
David Dubinsky (04:01) Amazing, amazing.
Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting watching the infant program. It’s eight-week program and kids start off with their mother or father or a grandparent, whatever, in the pool, right? Everybody being held. By the time they leave, they’re able to swim to the edge of the pool, grab onto the wall. know, hey, somewhere in this pool, the staircase, can shimmy my way over and climb out. And the point of that is that
All pools are the same. They usually have a egress and, you know, entrance spot, exit spot. And so even babies will figure out where that is and how to climb out of the pool on their own without mom or dad, you know, there to pull them out. And that’s where, you know, now they learning that, you know, eight months old, seven months old.
they’ll never forget that. So that’s the point of a water safety class for an infant. And the fact that our pool is warm, 92 degrees, salt water base, so it’s easier on your skin and your eyes. It’s not like chlorine where some kids react to that negatively, even adults. And it’s easier to bring in a wide variety of people and let them
Let them get comfortable in the water at a young age. And then of course for the seniors who come in and maybe had a knee replaced and we strap styrofoam weights to their ankles. Things don’t weigh anything outside of the pool, you wrap it around your ankle, go down three feet, and it’s like 10 pound weight. And you walk back and forth across the pool, right? Next thing you know,
you’ve strengthened that knee. You’ve done everything you’re supposed to do after surgery, or your hip, for people with severe arthritis, the warm water. I’m not sure about the science behind it, but they claim that they’re pain-free when they’re in the pool. And so they get their pain-free hour of the day, which is good for them and their brain. it’s an interesting thing. then the other things I mentioned,
the classes for children. there’s one thing about that, Frederico, I’d like to just mention if we have a minute. So we have 32 different schools that right now are sending kids here. Some schools it’s two, some it’s four, some it’s one. But there are kids, it could be from kindergarten to high school, right? Five years old to 20 years old.
And there are kids that have disabilities, most of them are autistic, but they have behavior issues and they’re hard to manage, which is why they’re not in their after school program where they attend school. And they come here and we’ll have teachers come here and go, how do you guys do this? We’re sending you our three most difficult children and other schools are doing the same.
We can’t handle them. You get them all here and somehow your staff is able to handle all of them. And, you know, it is an interesting question how that works. But one of the things that you notice right away when the children get off the bus and they come in here is they’re no longer the special ed kids. They’re no longer the different kids. You know, where they go to school, they’re kind of singled out. It’s nice that they’re in school.
You know, it’s nice that they have the right to go to public school. I mean, I think that’s wonderful. And it’s something a lot of parents fought for for years, you know, 10, 20, 30 years ago. But when they get here and they’re all together, there’s less pressure. And they, and oftentimes they walk by the classrooms in the afternoon, I think they’re just, they’re just kids. I mean, there’s behaviors, certainly, but you put 85 kids in a…
areas of behaviors no matter who they are, right? But I just think it’s a kind of amazing thing to see people being very respectful of each other, recognizing that they’re all maybe somewhat different, but when they’re here, those differences disappear. And it brings out more of the normal behavior that they have inside.
Federico Ramallo (08:18) .
Right, so not only is a place to gather, to enjoy the facilities, but also is a place where people find an inclusive environment and they can find their own peers.
David Dubinsky (08:58) That’s correct. And you know, sometimes inclusivity is a negative word. People think always about integration. I think integration is important too, but just like seniors sometimes love to be at the senior center with their peers playing poker and watching movies, it’s the same thing with all types of people. You know, it’s nice to have diversity.
Federico Ramallo (08:59) That’s amazing.
David Dubinsky (09:21) There’s a lot of value to it. But sometimes being with your peers is equally as important because of the way it allows you to relax, allows you to be among people that you know aren’t judging you. so that’s an interesting social experiment in a lot of ways.
Federico Ramallo (09:39) Right, right. And you can see how they come from being defensive to opening up with their other peers, right?
David Dubinsky (09:48) Exactly.
Federico Ramallo (09:49) I created something similar with my son. I think I told you this, he has some development issues on the gross motor skills and on the karate classes that we go. I go with him, I’m surrounded by kids, right? I’m probably the only adult other than the coach, right, in that class.
You know, I went from going with all the adults to go with the kids so I could go with my son, right? And I got the special permission for that, right? But funny enough, a few things happens. First, let me tell you about my son. He, even though he has these development issues and I can see the difference on development with the other kids, they treat him as an equal. So he is…
still part of that group and they treat him with respect and care. of course, it’s a challenge of, you have to be better every day, but it’s a safe space for him, And then what happened for me is that because all these kids, you you have peer pressure there, it comes naturally. what happens is that because all these kids have so much energy, I try to keep up with them. So
it became for me a higher challenge than going to the adults class because now I have to run at the speed of this, you know, their kids from the age of four five to, you know, 13, you know, 18 year old, you know, teenagers. Right. So I have to kind of try to follow up with them, their pace. And, you know, it becomes more challenging for me. So, you know, it’s a nice thing. Yeah.
David Dubinsky (11:17) or
Yeah, it’s interesting though, know, children, especially very young children, they don’t recognize, they recognize differences, but they don’t judge differences. And it’s, that’s why when you know, we have some, one of my dreams here is to have an inclusive preschool, but I’ve been to others. So when you see like two year olds, three year olds,
and you have a kid with a disability or some kid that’s different in some way, oftentimes the other children don’t necessarily, they don’t judge what that difference is. They might notice it, but they want to actually include everybody. We teach children things like discrimination and to…
kind of notice and maybe even value, put some judgment on differences. But it doesn’t come naturally. It’s not something that comes from them when they’re in the womb. So when they’re born, they’re a blank slate. And that’s what’s really interesting about inclusive preschool is that children, all kind of diversity come together when they’re two, three years old. When they finally go to school,
and someone that’s different than them comes in the classroom, they don’t react to it because they’ve lived with that all their life already, and it’s infectious. And I do believe that the kids today that are going through that type of program and they stay with it, when they get up and they go to work and then become a manager and move up the line, they’re gonna be the kind of people that respect
not just respect diversity, they’re going to demand diversity. They’re going to know the value of having people around them that look, that think, that act different because they know that all of that’s important to reaching out to the world. it’s an up and coming concept, but hopefully it
He gets a lot of legs.
Federico Ramallo (13:32) I think that what you’re talking about, that kids are blank slate, is what gives humanity hope. Because we always have the opportunity to build a new culture with the next generation.
David Dubinsky (13:34) it.
Exactly. You learn biases. We all have biases, and most of those are learned. Then you have to work hard to unlearn those. But if you grow up in an environment that doesn’t teach you biases right away, and so you’re less likely to adopt them,
And then, you you’re going to be more empathetic, more welcoming to everyone you meet. You everyone is interesting. And, you know, you probably know some people, Frederick, maybe even met people on your podcast that they just welcome to learn. They want to meet everybody they can because everybody has something of value to offer. And that’s something I, you know, I certainly learned by working here around
all of the adults that we serve. Some are not verbal, but they all have something of value to offer to themselves, to others. So it’s interesting.
Federico Ramallo (14:51) Yes, yes, I agree. You were talking about the value of all people, right? Can you expand a little bit more on why that’s important to you?
David Dubinsky (14:51) Yes.
bit. ⁓
Well, it’s been a learning for me to part of part of growing up and growing older is learning that everyone has some value if you look hard enough for it. You can overlook people thinking they have nothing to offer to you, but you’d be surprised if you really look. I mean, just.
A simple example, we have a woman that works here, actually comes here every day, one of our adults that we serve. And she’s not verbal, she uses a wheelchair for mobility, she’s very fragile. But she has the most infectious smile of anybody I’ve ever met in my life. And when she comes into a room, there’s something
magnetic about her. When she’s not here, you notice it. When she’s here, you notice it. When she comes in, people gravitate towards her. She’s smiling, and you move her in front of a TV, and she’s enjoying whatever’s on TV. She just seems like she enjoys life. Now, this is someone who has nothing. She has no resources, no money, no…
no standing, no title, just her smile, her personality, right? But when she offers that to other people, to you, to me, to anybody that’s around her, you get joy out of it. And the thing about that is I’ve known people 20 years that don’t make me feel as good as she does. you know, all she has to do is be in the room.
And that’s what I’m saying is that you could walk by her on the street and never notice that. But if you take time to notice it, you know, it brings you a little bit of joy. that’s somebody that her value is the joy she brings to others. Everybody has something like that that they can, that they, want to share. And if you take the time to listen, to investigate,
to seek that out, you’ll find it.
Federico Ramallo (17:08) Amazing, amazing. Yeah, I completely agree. mean, we sometimes we are so, you know, running through life and we kind of miss, you know, the important things, right?
David Dubinsky (17:23) Right. Well, you you look, you quickly learn every day is important and because you never know if you have the next one, right? You just don’t. And so you you want to take advantage. I mean, you know, we all go through just like I get on, you know, I come here, I commute from outside of the city into the city, you know, all of those things that can be.
Geriatry at times, I do a lot of reading on my commute, but I’m always also looking around. I’m always looking at people because some of my experiences of having people notice me when I didn’t think they would, you know, also changed the way I think about other people. So, and one other quick, quick kind of side story about that.
Federico Ramallo (18:14) Yes.
David Dubinsky (18:14) So a couple years ago, I was downtown San Francisco, was waiting for a subway and there was all this water that wouldn’t normally be there and I didn’t really notice it at first. And this street taxi pulled up and splashed water, got on my pants, know, on my shoes. And I should have known, I should have seen it, but I wasn’t paying attention, didn’t see it.
and it was frustrating. was stressed for work. And about two minutes later, I’m still waiting out there and I had mud and I was trying to brush it off. And this guy that was homeless came up to me with a rag that he had and he said, sir, let me help you. He gave me his rag. He started wiping off my pants and my shoes. And I turned around and I said, wow, I really
really appreciate that and he said it’s probably surprising to you that you, that I noticed that. And I looked at him and I said, actually, no, what’s surprising is that I didn’t notice you until you came up here. And I’m sorry about that. And I really appreciate the time you’re taking to help me, right? So here’s somebody again that has nothing.
lives on the street. I didn’t even notice him behind me, honestly, because sometimes people on the street, you feel bad about them, but you don’t need to notice them. And now I take time to notice them and make sure, especially if they’re very young, I make sure to go up and ask them some questions. You know, are you okay? Why are you here? You know, what’s happening? Because you
You know, I think they go through life not being noticed and yet they, you know, at time, you know, that helped me in a moment in need and without being asked.
Federico Ramallo (20:11) Right, right. They become invisible. I’ve seen that happening in the big cities and I’m surprised how people would just, you know, walk over, you know, homeless people just, you know, raise a leg and just jump over it, right, without even paying attention, right, to that person. I find, you know, I understand
David Dubinsky (20:12) Good night.
Federico Ramallo (20:33) I understand why that happens, right? But people get decent device so much that the homeless become invisible, right? And that’s that as a sadness.
David Dubinsky (20:43) It is, it is. And actually, that man changed how I react when I see someone like that now. So it was a learning lesson for me. I felt like that day changed me a little bit for the better. And it spills over into other areas. I talked a lot to the staff here about empathy. What is empathy?
Why is it important? And moments like that help you realize you still have a lot to learn. realize that I still, teach people about empathy, but I’m still learning about it. know, so, I mean, I think that’s how we all are. We learn, we just learn every day, something, hopefully. But I mean, that’s where, you know, you take those small things and they all become who you are.
over a long period of time.
Federico Ramallo (21:32) Right, right. And it’s all about just open your eyes and looking around you.
David Dubinsky (21:33) Thank you.
looking and most importantly listening.
You you can hear people, that’s one thing, but when you listen to them, that’s a whole different thing. And that to me is the difference, that’s where empathy kind of begins. When you really start listening, not just hearing what they’re saying, but listening to what they’re saying, trying to understand what they’re saying, trying to understand at a level where
You are them. You almost never will get there, but you strive to that. I want to understand you. You’re here talking to me and I want to know. I want to be able to know who you are, what you’re saying at the same level that you’re communicating with me. Hard to do, but that skill of listening is that’s really the most valuable.
skill. And there are a lot of challenges with it. But that’s something to work on all the time, no matter how they communicate. Even if they’re deaf and they’re trying to sign with you or communicate in another way, now listening is a different thing. But it’s still important to do your best to listen.
Bye.
Federico Ramallo (23:03) Right, right, because they have so much to give and so much for you to learn.
David Dubinsky (23:04) Right.
Yeah, exactly. And you never know. I mean, you never know where the wisdom is going to come from. It could come from a child. It could come from an employee you just hire. You never know where that wisdom is going to come from. And so you have to be open to it. And then when you listen and you hear something that, like, yeah, that’s obvious. I never thought of it.
But it’s amazing where it comes from. It can come from anywhere.
Federico Ramallo (23:34) Right, right. So what other lessons about appreciation, appreciating life have the people you serve taught you?
David Dubinsky (23:43) Well, there’s a lot of things. One, materialism only goes so far with joy and happiness. Most of the people that we see here, that come here, have very little, you know, personally own anything. They live in group homes. They’re lucky if they have their own bedroom, many of them, most of them probably.
And so you learn to a little bit more to appreciate what you do have and then to not put too much value on that and to think about other ways of finding happiness.
just by being with people, by being in the environment, by listening to people’s
And when you see people who, that’s their joy, that’s their day, they look forward to coming here. The rest of us come here to work, right? And we get paid to be here, but they don’t get paid to be here. They come here because they wanna be here during the day. It’s like the highlight. And for most of them, it’s the highlight of their day. It’s what they look forward to.
and they don’t look forward to the weekend. You know, it’s the opposite. People who work, they look forward to the weekend. People that come to a place like this, it’s the opposite. So you start to see that right away and then it just helps you in so many other aspects of your life because you learn to respect people no matter what they have, no matter who they are.
no matter how old they are, no matter their race, their religion, their value system. You just learn that everyone can be, has a value and can be valued if you take the time to try to do that. And so once you do do that, you start to…
feel less enamored to other things. You just do. You don’t put as much emphasis on the car you drive or the clothes you wear. mean, you see value beyond just the materialistic part of life. And I think it’s healthy for people to experience that, which is one of the reasons I tell everybody that I know.
that I mean, either at the beginning of your career or towards the end of it, try to volunteer or work at a nonprofit organization in your community that’s trying to solve a social problem because you’re going to learn things you don’t learn in other types of settings. And that learning is going to be very valuable to you. And it doesn’t matter when you learn it. Obviously, it’s just part of
of your fabric, but usually nonprofit organizations are solving problems that are otherwise not being solved in the community. And different communities have different issues, but they’re oftentimes very difficult problems to solve. And sometimes people look down on nonprofit, just a charity. They’re not really doing
important work, whatever, they don’t get paid very much. It’s the same thing we do with teachers teaching first grade and second grade. We don’t pay them much. They’re not valued in society the way I think they should be. They’re building the foundation of the human race, for Christ’s sakes. We should really value that, but we don’t.
over time, if you spend enough time like you do with your child in karate, you learn, hey, you know, the people that are teaching these kids, that’s a skill. It’s hard to do, right? And it’s valuable. It’s valuable for all the kids in that class to learn the lessons of this karate. You know, it’s a discipline, right? So they’re learning motor skills and physical skills and mental skills and
and they all help build that person into who they’re going to become. it’s a, know, what’s the value, you know, what’s the value of that? So I don’t know. I just think that for me, being around a lot of people that are considered society-wide to be people that maybe don’t have a lot of value unless they happen to be in your own family, you…
You learn that that’s wrong. You learn that people are missing out on some real amazing learning opportunities and amazing people.
Federico Ramallo (28:20) Right. Yeah. And on the karate dojo, they ran it almost as a nonprofit because they barely break even. ⁓ And they. But the level of commitment and care the coach has for for the kids is amazing. Right. And I’m very grateful to have found found him and, you know, being able to be part of that. Right.
David Dubinsky (28:22) Yeah.
I don’t know.
Federico Ramallo (28:48) I also help on the coaching whenever I can. And I coach my kid and other kids as well, right?
David Dubinsky (28:54) Yeah, and a lot of people that do that kind of work get great joy out of it. money is secondary to them. It’s like, if I can pay my electric bill, I want to teach these kids what I know, and they get great joy out of transferring that knowledge. That’s what teachers do. They get great joy out of that. that’s just another thing about
humans, if you get great joy out of something and you’re doing it, there’s value to you for that, right? You go home and you feel very valuable and fulfilled even if you made very little money doing it. Money no longer is the driver. It’s the joy of doing that for somebody else, passing on your knowledge, seeing them become better than you. All of those
Everybody I’ve known that’s in a discipline like a dojo, they want to see their students be better than them. They want to create the next better person in that discipline. A golfing coach wants, I want you to become Tiger Woods. I want you to become better than me. I want you to succeed. want to give you
Federico Ramallo (29:52) Right.
David Dubinsky (30:07) the knowledge I have that I think will help you. And then you feel unbelievable if they actually do succeed. And you get great joy out of that. And that’s what you see with a lot of people working even in social sectors, in medicine, whatever. I mean, they get joy out of helping others and seeing them succeed in whatever it is they’re trying to do.
Federico Ramallo (30:31) Right. So what is the experience for your stuff? What do you think are the motivations that motivates them to show up every day and do a better job?
David Dubinsky (30:42) You know, that is a really interesting question because I used to ask myself that when I first came here, it’s like, wow, you know, I have 156 staff here.
David Dubinsky (30:53) very expensive city. How do they survive doing this kind of work? And then I find that they love it. They do it because they choose to do it. Because of that whole thing we just talked about. They, it’s hard work for them physically, mentally, but they get great joy out of seeing other people.
get joy from what they’re doing and it brings them self satisfaction. And as I’ve gone around and I’ve talked to the elementary school teachers, preschool teachers, nurses, doctors even, there are a lot of doctors who make money, no question about that. But there are also doctors at work, and doctors without borders, right? There are doctors that volunteer their time. We have dentists that come here every Wednesday. They were here earlier.
today and they donate their time to do dentistry to people here that have no means to pay. They do that because they know they can help and they get great joy out of seeing somebody’s improved or their health improve because they were able to come here and donate an hour of their skill, of their time. Not every dentist will do it.
Not every doctor will do it. Not every nurse is a great nurse, you find most of them are because they’re underpaid, but they’re doing most of the work in hospitals, right? They’re not making what the doctors do, but they’re there every day going to work. It’s grueling on them, but they must love it. And that’s just kind of the way
Federico Ramallo (32:11) you
David Dubinsky (32:23) I think about my staff here. Now, I mean, I’m a realist. I have 156 people. Some people work here because it’s close to where they live and they need a job and they come here and they go. But and that’s fine. But the majority of people do more than what they’re being asked to do. And they do it willingly because of the personal return they get out of being here.
Federico Ramallo (32:46) Right, right. And how do you build a culture where the staff is respected, supported and seen?
David Dubinsky (32:54) Well, my philosophy is, you know, I’m a CEO. I haven’t always been a CEO my whole life, right? I’ve been on the front lines as an employee, had a lot of different jobs. My whole philosophy about that is, you know, I don’t ask anyone to do anything. I wouldn’t do myself unless I’m not qualified to do it. I love to get in there and work with them. When I walk around the campus,
If I see a piece of paper on the ground, I bend down and pick it up. I don’t wait for the ground crew to pick it up. Part of it is leading by example and building the kind of respect. I talk to people all the time here, especially newer employees. They’ll be almost in awe. you’re the CEO and they won’t talk right away.
You know, or I got to be quiet. The CEO is coming. And I try to teach them real, real early on that I just have a different title. You know, the CEO has a, it’s a different title. It’s a different set of skills. You know, it’s not more important than the receptionist outside my office here. That’s the first person everyone sees when they walk in the door. You know, that’s an important person.
because it sets the tone for everyone that walks through this door. She sets the tone out there. And I appreciate that. I appreciate the work that she does very much. And so I her know that every time I see her, I thank her for being there. And I try to thank everybody for coming in to work because it’s important. And I’m grateful that they’re here.
And so I try to lead with people, not through people. And I’ve worked for both types of managers and the managers that are out there with you trying to solve problems. You always love them because you feel like they understand what you’re doing and you understand what they’re doing. And I love it when people say, get out of here. Let me do this. I know you can help me, but let me do it on my own.
That means now they have enough trust that they can actually say that to you. Get away, let me do this. But they also are, what they’re not saying is, I’m glad you were volunteering to be at my side while I’m doing this job. I’m glad you were here to help me fix that motor or change that light bulb or whatever it is. They do appreciate, they do notice it.
That’s really the idea of building a culture where people feel supported, where people feel heard, where people feel seen. And to the degree that you can do that at any level of leadership or management, you’re gonna have a much more productive team.
Federico Ramallo (35:38) Amazing, amazing. So what is one positive difference you want your work to create over the next few years?
David Dubinsky (35:38) I
You know, right now we’re trying to change the lives of one person, one family, one at a time. We’re trying to improve each person that we come in contact with here. We’re trying to improve their life. When we improve their life, it affects many others, maybe some people we don’t know, we won’t ever see.
But as we do that, we’re trying to create a culture where other people can go out and do that same thing in other aspects of their life, not just here. And it has like a snowball effect, you know.
Many, many, many, many years ago, I was a graduate student in economics and I had a real interesting professor. He was from the Bayall College in England, part of Oxford University system, brilliant economist, older man. I was young in my early 20s and he used all kinds of examples about
I was studying macroeconomics as a graduate student. So you’re learning about fiscal budgets and country-level kind of economic systems. But every once in he would talk about individual things. And he was very much enamored with a woman at the time who was alive, a mother, Teresa. He was just enamored with her.
talked about her all the time as being one of the most powerful people on the planet. And he had a lot of reasons why he felt that way about her. he said, you know, one of the sayings that was up on the wall that I realized was her saying was, you can’t feed a thousand, feed one. Right. And you see that all over. There’s a lot of different ways, a lot of different philosophers have different versions of that, you know.
Why are you picking up starfish on the beach and throwing them back in when they’re just going to wash up again or there’s a million on the beach? And somebody goes, well, when I throw this one back in, that one’s happy, right? I saved that one. Mother Teresa was talking about if you can’t feed a thousand people, feed one. Why? Because that one might be able to feed a thousand. You don’t know, right? And so that’s
kind of what I’m trying to do here as I finish up my career over the next five years or so, but to instill in people that
when you change a person for the better, you probably are improving a lot of other people around that one person you don’t see. And then those, and it spreads. And so your impact can be great, much greater than you will ever know. You don’t know whose life you’re changing and then what they’re gonna do with that life. Nor should that matter to you.
What should matter is that person in front of you that needs your help. Work on that. Solve that. And let the rest happen. But it will happen.
Federico Ramallo (38:41) Right, right. That’s amazing. And what advice would you give to someone who wants to live with more empathy and respect for others?
David Dubinsky (38:51) Learn how to listen.
Number one, and maybe that’s all you have to do because if you really learn how to listen and not just hear what people are saying but understand what they’re saying, try to understand where that person’s coming from. Then you can really start to build empathy and that empathy
will help you in so many aspects of your life because you’ll stop overlooking people, you’ll stop, it’ll help you to stop using your biases or having your biases come into play when you meet someone. And quite, you you realize by doing that, that
by listening to people, really get to know who they are. And they notice if you really are making an effort to know who they are and what they’re saying. so that’s what you, I mean, that’s the advice I give to people is try not to preach on it. Try not to let those biases come out. You know, when someone comes up and they have a pronoun you don’t understand or they’re
You know, they’ve got piercings all over, know, tattoos on their head and you don’t know who they are and maybe you have a bias with that or they’re a different color or they’re not speaking your language very well. I mean, do your best to listen to what they’re trying to tell you. And all the rest of that melts away. And then all you see is a person and you’re really hearing their message. And if you can do that,
you’ll build rapport with that person and you’ll gain their respect and also most importantly, their trust. it’s trust is the key. That’s the base. That’s the base for leadership. That’s the base for so many things is that trust. And that trust, that’s the building block and empathy is right alongside there. you probably…
Can’t build trust without having empathy. it’s hard to have empathy if you don’t have initially trust for people. Assume that everyone has good intentions until they’ve proved otherwise to you. That’s the other thing. Assume they have good intentions until they’ve proved otherwise to you.
and not go into it thinking the opposite. Come at it from, believe this is a good person first, not they have to earn my trust. Well, yeah, mean, trust needs to be earned, but give them an opportunity. Walk in with a clean slate. And that’s part of how you, that’s the advice I give people here. That’s the advice I give.
new managers, that’s the advice I give my own children, you know, to start off with that. Look at somebody, try to understand what they’re trying to say, and listen to the best of your ability.
Federico Ramallo (41:51) Right, right. Coming with an open mind and without preconceptions.
Amazing, amazing. Yeah, I think that’s a great advice and it sounds easy to do, but it’s hard to do. But the more practice you have, the better you get.
David Dubinsky (42:08) Absolutely.
Federico Ramallo (42:09) David, we’re running out of time. I truly appreciated you being here today. Any final remarks before we wrap it up?
David Dubinsky (42:17) No, it’s just I’m glad to meet you. I hope one day, you know, maybe we’ll have a meal somewhere together and have another chance to meet. In the meantime, I’ll try to listen to other of your podcasts. Federico, I think you’re doing the world a great justice. just very I’m actually I look at the level of people that you’ve had on your show.
And I don’t see myself up there with all these other guests that you’ve had, but I do appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and share what I’m doing here in a very small corner of the world. But again, you know, maybe something good will come out of it, and I hope so.
Federico Ramallo (42:56) I’m truly honored to have you here today and share your story with our audience. So thank you. And thank you for the kind words. I appreciate you. You like the episodes. It’s, it’s, I mean, when, when, when you talk with people, you can see the reactions, but when you talk with an audience through a podcast, right? It’s, you know, you see it’s hard to see the reaction or getting the feedback, right? You can get it through comments or.
or things like that but it’s you know sometimes you don’t see if what you’re doing is you know resonates with people or not so I truly appreciate you saying that yeah
David Dubinsky (43:30) Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Have a great day.
Federico Ramallo (43:33) Thank you.
You too.