What we talked about
Matthew Fornaro shares how he became a business law attorney, starting with childhood curiosity sparked by The People’s Court, and why the real practice of law was a major learning curve after law school. Matthew explains why business law often lives in the “gray,” how juries and human judgment can create unexpected outcomes, and why appeals exist to help the system correct itself over time.
Show notes
Matthew Fornaro left two AmLaw 200 firms, and turned down a third, even larger one, to open his own practice in the suburbs of South Florida in 2015, with no business experience and a deliberate goal to serve founders who he felt were being ignored by both big city law and general practice attorneys. Twenty-three years into litigation, he still says things surprise him every day.
What we covered
- Matthew traces his interest in law to watching The People’s Court at his grandparents’ house in elementary school. By high school, he had already decided on law school, a straight line that led through two large AmLaw 200 firms before he stepped back and asked himself whether cycling through big firms was really the career he wanted.
- The biggest reality check in his first years of practice wasn’t the case complexity, it was that law is not black and white. Juries bring emotion, misunderstanding, and gut instinct into decisions that are supposed to follow legal logic, which is why appellate courts exist: not just to review facts, but to correct misapplications of the law over time.
- The most common call he gets from business owners traces back to how they started: no written governing documents, no proper paperwork, no planning. When things go wrong, whether the business is succeeding or failing, they discover they have no contracts to fall back on and must default to whatever the law provides, which is rarely what they wanted.
- On intellectual property, Matthew is direct: founders need to protect IP from inception, not later. He compares it to buying a house and waiting a year to put a lock on the door. By the time most startups get around to it, someone else has already appropriated the idea.
- Matthew went through both the Kauffman Foundation FastTrack program and the Jim Moran Institute for Global Entrepreneurship at Florida State University as a student, and now teaches the business law component of both programs. He says his value as an instructor comes from having sat in the same chair as the founders he teaches.
- On AI and intellectual property, Matthew noted that all IP law is built around human creators, so when a machine produces something, ownership becomes genuinely unsettled. He predicted that IP law for AI could take until the turn of the century to stabilize, just as internet law after 30 years remains unresolved in many areas.
About Matthew
Matthew Fornaro is a South Florida business law attorney and founder of Matthew Fornaro PA, a firm he launched in 2015 to serve small and mid-sized businesses with litigation, contracts, construction matters, and intellectual property. He is also a qualified arbitrator for the state of Florida, FINRA, the National Futures Association, and NAMM.
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewfornaro
- Website: https://fornarolegal.com
Episode 104 of the PreVetted Podcast.
Full transcript
Federico Ramallo (00:00) Welcome back to the pre-vered podcast where we spotlight extraordinary people and remarkable talent reshaping our world This episode is special. This episode is built on threes and it’s not an accident There are no accidents We have not come here by chance. I do not believe in chance when I see three voices three lessons
three stories, I do not see coincidence. I see providence. I see purpose. I believe these episodes hold for each and every one of us the very meaning of our creative lives. Today, we are diving into Open the Valve, a book that guides you through six intersections where creativity comes alive. Welcome to episode 99.
Today we’re joined by the authors, John Klimchin and Isaac Nyer, and myself on the Spanish edition, Abre la válvula. John, Isaac, welcome to the show.
John (01:06) ⁓
Isaac Naor (01:09) We need to go with that name for all of them.
For every cover. Every version.
John (01:12) I should have the copy in front of me. That is so great. It sounds so much more interesting in Espanol than it does in English. Open the valve. It sounds like a mechanic is out on your front lawn, but abre la valvula. Sounds like you’re asking a girl out.
Isaac Naor (01:21) I could not agree more. I could not agree more.
Federico Ramallo (01:30) The name is so sexy, yes. And I just realized that I just reshaped my mouth just to say it in Spanish.
John (01:40) That’s awesome.
Isaac Naor (01:41) ⁓ I wish we need to we need to use that name for every
John (01:45) We really should. Abre la valvula and then in small print open the valve.
It’s amazing what will get people’s attention, right?
Federico Ramallo (01:53) So do we go on three or three and then go?
Isaac Naor (01:53) Ugh.
John (01:57) This is your show, man.
Isaac Naor (01:59) You
Federico Ramallo (01:59) I keep coding ⁓ movies. ⁓ So anyway. ⁓
John (02:06) do we go on three or is it three and then go, right? We’ll go on three. One, two, three. No, no, no, no. One, two, three, then we go. Okay, now I know what you’re talking about.
Federico Ramallo (02:09) Yes.
Isaac Naor (02:15) Look, as long as it’s broken into threes, everyone will remember everything, so we’ll be fine from that standpoint. ⁓ Feta, you had some questions. Do you want to start with one of them?
John (02:21) That’s right.
Federico Ramallo (02:26) yeah so I have three groups of three questions which I hope we’re to have time to go through so the first question is why did you decide to write this book now?
John (02:37) Well, I’ll start. is when you say, why did I decide what this turned into?
And I think the reason that the three of us are together here today is it turned into one of the most fulfilling collaborations of my entire life. I have collaborated as a musician. I’ve collaborated as a performer. I’ve collaborated on ⁓ creating books in the past, ⁓ corporate books. Isaac and I had done an exploration of flow states as a result of a whole bunch of recorded conversations that were
that we did right around when podcasts really started exploding. the why now? Well, because I found that there were specific concepts that transcended the environment, the conversation, the background or the ⁓
I guess the mission of anybody I was talking to. When I would speak with my musician friends, we talked about some of the concepts that ended up being pillars for this book. When I’ve spoken with people that I’ve known in film and in theater, we spoke about concepts in this book. Isaac and I, over the 11 years that we’ve known each other, which is hard to believe that we’re tapping on 11 years, every time he and I talked, he…
and I spoke to him about the concepts in the book, he would illuminate things for me. I don’t take that word lightly. I like to quote the ancient philosophy book, the Tao, the Tao Tse Tung, and it says, seeing the subtle is called illumination. And the reason I’m looking over here is because I like it so much. I have it on one of my Post-It notes on my wall. what happened was that Isaac and I were talking about this and he said, you know, when I read
read portions of this, I get images in my mind and Isaac as a designer and as an inventor, that’s his, that’s where he lives. And then.
One of the most thrilling moments, Federico, was we won’t say how long ago it was now because we’re very close to completion, but when I was explaining the concepts in the book to you and how excited I was about how it was coming together, you asked me that magic question, that trajectory question, and you said, well, who’s going to translate it into Spanish for you?
And I’m reminded of the times that I’ve been on committees in churches or in boardrooms where someone says, somebody should blank. And of course, everybody turns to that person and says, great, good idea, go do that.
Somebody should set up a new thing for the kids to do for Halloween. Well guess who ends up doing it? The person who had it come out of their mouth. So when you said who’s going to translate it, I said I’ve always hoped that more of my work would be translated into Spanish and French and German and Italian etc.
Spanish is in the business world is a the language is huge. It’s used all across North America and of course all across Latin America. And we talked about the three different types of Spanish that people speak. But why now? Well, because as you said, when you started this, when three things come together in a powerful way, that is a call for action.
That’s a call to me, I think it’s our duty to respond to it. So why did I write this book now? Why did we collaborate on this book now? Why are we bringing this book out into the world now? Because it’s time.
Federico Ramallo (06:20) Amazing. ⁓ Isaac, what are your thoughts?
Isaac Naor (06:25) There’s no coincidence, huh? There are no coincidences, right? It needed to happen now. Well, a couple things. I actually question back for you, and I’m I have another follow-up as well for you. John, mean, you work through this collaboration. It sounds like you enjoy this collaboration. How did the collaboration affect what ended up coming out? You have this note card next to you.
John (06:29) According to FedEx
Isaac Naor (06:55) And I bet that note card, that sticky note, is the beginning of another book. If I know you.
John (07:01) It’s possible. Right now I’ve got two coming behind this one, so I’m kind of busy. However, that’s possible. But you know what’s interesting is that I love the fact that we’re doing this today because I didn’t want to forget that in my quiet time this morning…
Isaac Naor (07:02) Hahaha
Mmm.
John (07:17) Isaac,
you and I have talked about how important this is. Isaac and I have spoken about and Federico, you and I have talked about how important this is as well, is starting the day in a posture, in a position, in a mind space of gratitude. I believe and I tell everyone that will listen to me, every day is a gift. And I want to start the day in as peaceful a way as possible.
So I get up an hour and half earlier than my wife and I pour a cup of coffee and I will take, I’ll escort my cat out onto our ⁓ porch. He’s an indoor cat, but he understands that he’s allowed to be on the porch as long as he’s on someone’s lap on a chair. And that time with the cat talking to God, looking out into the sky, just really being centered and starting with gratitude.
This morning, we saw a shooting star. Now don’t know if Harvey remembers it, and he doesn’t talk about stuff often. He will complain if I step on his paw, which you guys heard before we started recording.
Isaac Naor (08:21) Cool.
John (08:28) It was really interesting because we’ve had something here. I live in southwest Idaho and we have a weather event that’s called an inversion. And effectively what it is is very light fog with clouds on top where we will go days, sometimes even weeks without seeing the sky or the sun. And it’s interesting. It’s weird. Well, the inversion moved out a couple of days ago. So I’m sitting on the porch this morning in the dark with the coffee with the cat and this shooting star.
I counted it, it lasted four seconds. This was not just, it was, wow, wow, I wonder how long it’ll be. I wonder, and that just, to me, it set the tone for the day that this was going to be a special day. So back to, back to why do we, what was your question, Isaac? Why are we collaborating now?
Isaac Naor (09:02) That’s a long time.
Well,
how did it affect, how did the collaboration affect the outcome of the work? I think you’re sort of, yeah, the shooting star is very emblematic of, of, yeah, anyway, of something very, very large kind of coming into your constellation, having a ripple effect on the work that you’re doing today, that you’re feeling today, et cetera, et cetera. So leading you right back in there.
John (09:38) Well, to me, a shooting star is a specific event. is you got to grab it when when you see it. And and I wrote that to remind myself because I’ll get busy with the business of the day, whatever that might be. And it’s very easy to forget those very special moments. And I related to this book because this is this is not a how to be creative work. This is a
As a creative practitioner and anyone who engages in creativity on a regular basis, business people, artists, architects, painters, designers, coders, musicians, inventors, ⁓ entrepreneurs, we are regularly opening the valve. Abre la valvula.
Federico Ramallo (10:27) He said it amazingly.
John (10:29) How about that? And this is not a how-to book. This is a, let’s continue to pursue our best work. Let’s understand that there is no shortage of what comes to us when we open the valve, the energy, the inspiration, and ultimately to me, the clarity. This book could have been three times as long as where we ultimately landed.
The process of taking it to where it is now has been incredibly educational and inspirational to me because every edit that you guys have suggested, every illustration, Isaac, that you’ve provided, every argument that the three of us have gotten into over the cover.
Friendly, loving arguments, but arguments, no question. No, I don’t like that. No, AI sucks for coming up with art. The joy found in number one, recognizing that you’re a creative practitioner, meaning you bring creativity to virtually everything in your life, into your family life, into your friendships, into the work that you do, into how you find an alternative way to drive home the
the joy found in accepting in the moniker of a creative practitioner because Isaac, that’s a phrase that you gave me during the writing of the book. I was about 60 % of the way through with deciding what the concepts would be. And the concepts…
the six concepts, what they do is they feed the individual chapters. we even say in the there’s an opening piece called the path of this that comes right after the preface. And the preface is an introduction to me and to you and to you and to the work. The path of this is hey, you’re reading this because this went on a journey. This was part of my journey along my path to creative play. Because here’s the thing, there was no reason for me
to write this outside of sheer joy.
I’ve been talking too much.
Federico Ramallo (12:35) Right.
Isaac Naor (12:37) No, this is
Federico Ramallo (12:37) Right.
Isaac Naor (12:38) good. Wait, Feday, I have a follow-up question for you as well. I As you went through this process, this creative process, you went through translation in particular, which is huge because you’re unlocking access to a very, very large group of individuals. And that is massive.
Federico Ramallo (12:42) Yes, of course.
Isaac Naor (13:01) And I think with that comes a lot of responsibility and ⁓ creative approaches as much as an art as it is a science, right? You can take two approaches to that. You can to translation, especially of a creative work like this, especially with language, with mighty little words that so much work. I hope every listener gets to hear that or see that line at some point. That was one of the few lines that, I mean, there were many lines that stood out to me, but I keep reusing that language and I love it.
So Fede, as you were translating, you had two choices in terms of approach. You can be a thousand or a hundred percent transparent, right, and just allow for all of the words and meaning to strive to hit the exact meaning, and or, more or, you can also take a little bit more creative freedom, where you’re understanding the concepts and translating from a conceptual standpoint, which effectively actually puts a little twist on
⁓ on the narrative and creates an entirely not just a new work, but a net new work. How did you approach that? How did you think about the translation ⁓ from an approach standpoint, right? From a paradigm standpoint.
Federico Ramallo (14:11) Well, the first, and this is kind of going into the why, why I thought about the translation and why for me it’s important is because other than Starship Troopers, you know, movie from 1994 where the aliens attacks Buenos Aires, right? There are, you know, all the movies attack, all aliens attack in New York or San Francisco, you know.
But they’re never regionalized to cities in Latin America, right? So that was for me the why. Why for me is important, right? And then while I was doing that, while I was talking with John about the importance of the translation, I start adding these different ⁓ ideas, different concepts within the book, right? ⁓ We were talking about the power of three, right?
And then I start remembering there is an important card game in Argentina called Truco, right? And then I started researching, there’s so many three card games, right? That adds to the richness of the stories, right? That adds to that. And for me, it was important first to ⁓ include or give the audience in Latin America, in Spain,
give them their own ⁓ flavor. That was the first one. Another good example for this is Shrek. In Shrek, they put a lot of jokes. The donkey has jokes that only work in Spanish. They’re different. The way that people laugh is different. So ⁓ that became a huge cultural hit in Latin America because we have our own jokes.
right, is there not a direct translation, right? ⁓ And that adds to how much we can relate to those characters, right? So I find both very excited about doing that type of work. Also, I feel a lot of responsibility because, as you said, Isaac, I’m talking to a huge audience that will have a big impact in Spanish, right? And also,
John (16:06) Thank
Federico Ramallo (16:35) you know, knowing John ⁓ as I do, allow me to ⁓ translate and try to understand not only the words, but also the meaning he’s putting behind it, to not only translate it word by word, but also ⁓ translate the meaning into it, right? ⁓ And funny enough, some of those ⁓ stories and additions that I made to the book.
Isaac Naor (16:49) the concept.
Federico Ramallo (17:05) are being put towards the English version as well because John found it very interesting to share as well. you know, it’s… I find that ⁓ dynamic very interesting and inspiring, right?
John (17:21) The fact that we were going back and forth, him putting how something might be perceived and how the difference of the context was so critical. That’s what inspired me to say this is not a straight translation because ⁓ I think where you were headed Isaac is that that would be great. We could have AI do that.
This was much more important, was a heck of a lot more work on Federico’s part, I’m sure, than he had planned on.
But that’s where collaboration really started. And that’s why ⁓ the Spanish language version is a collaboration between he and I. is not a, translate this for me and give it back to me and I’ll see you later. So we’re looking forward to speaking to as many audiences as possible. I’m not sure if I told you the story, Federico, but some years ago I spoke in Mexico City and I was in front of about 50 travel agents and they were these
folks that served the top 1 % of earners in all of Mexico. And they brought me into this room, which I was thrilled to be there. And in the back of the room were three people in what looked like mini sound booths. And they had headphones on and microphones, three of them.
Interesting. It didn’t occur to me until just now that there were three of them. And I got up in front and I’m doing my thing and I’m speaking, you know, at about 400 words a minute. And I realized that if I made a joke, I would have to stop and wait to hear the translation in the ears of the people in the room because many of them were bilingual, of course, but they want to hear it in. ⁓
native language so they were waiting for it to be translated. By the third joke I realized okay I just have to freeze as though I’m in a movie and I’m being paused and wait two or three beats for the joke to make it. Most of the jokes failed which of course was great because I said well then clearly that joke doesn’t work here in Mexico City. I just kept waiting. was like all right the
Isaac Naor (19:20) You just kept waiting.
Federico Ramallo (19:21) You
John (19:26) The thrill of hearing my work translated into another language and watching people respond to it.
And seeing that the emotional stories that I tell that they resonated with people that that led to many years later Federico and I talking about this work because these concepts are not they are not American concepts. They are not English speaking concepts. They are about the amazing availability of the our ability to open the valve.
and let creativity come through us. I was listening to an interview with a very successful jazz bass player who was at a ⁓ festival and he kept calling people over to come and talk to him on this broadcast and one of the younger players said, know, music doesn’t come from us. Music comes through us. I love that.
Music comes through us. When I started playing drums as a kid, it was incredibly satisfying. The lizard brain was like, er, er, boom, sound, ⁓
Moving to piano and guitar where you have to draw the music out or even singing, right, is such a thrill. And Federico, we were talking about music and there’s a section called Why We Speak. There’s another one called The Mystery of Melody. Federico, those were some of the coolest conversations we had because you…
Isaac Naor (20:55) That was a good.
John (20:56) You’re like, okay, this is what this is going to mean to a Latin audience. This is a place for us to go much deeper because of the importance of music and melody and history and culture and family. I mean, it’s thrilling. I can’t wait for a couple of hundred thousand people to read this.
Federico Ramallo (21:19) Yes, and when you’re giving a joke, when you’re having a conversation, you can see the feedback immediately. You can see the reaction with the translator in the middle. Now you have a delay. And ⁓ when we’re talking on a podcast, I have the same situation where we’re talking to an audience that is not responding immediately, the response after. So there is a bigger delay. And I felt that
John (21:46) Right.
Federico Ramallo (21:49) The same thing happens with the book, right? This is my first experience ⁓ writing a book. ⁓ you probably know better about this, but you you have a longer delay, right? So, and the response, it’s longer lived. You say the joke once, you get one response, but here you publish a book, you you get, you say the joke, but now you get multiple responses through many, many years.
John (22:18) I just was sent a snapshot of a Reddit comment. You guys familiar with Reddit, the social media platform? Where three people were having an argument about whether or not my book on managing salespeople was the best book they’d ever read on sales management. To be able to watch that, and guess what? That book is 20 years old this year. is 20th anniversary.
Federico Ramallo (22:25) Yes.
Isaac Naor (22:35) That’s incredible. Wow. Was that a
how to not like sound like a jerk or something?
John (22:45) No, this is the it’s called the ultimate sales manager’s guide. people were arguing, no, I think the one by so and so is a little better. Well, no, here’s why Clemson’s book is so good. I’m just I’m just watching this, you know, of course, I tried to reach out to them and you know how how adept I am in technology. What’s that?
Isaac Naor (22:49) The Ultimate Sales Manager is good.
Talk about a delay. Talk
about a delay, 20 years. Wow. And that, it feeds to the import. Go, go, go, Fede.
Federico Ramallo (23:06) That’s a 20 year delay, yeah.
John (23:10) And they just discovered.
Federico Ramallo (23:12) And they’re talking about
another jerk.
John (23:17) Thank you.
Federico Ramallo (23:17) Hahaha
Isaac Naor (23:18) man, so we’re talking about a full adaptation. This is not a translation. This is an adaptation. It’s a cultural adaptation to ensure that everything lands. Every concept lands, every insight, every comparison lands. And I think that’s also a big part of the illustrations that are incorporated into the book, into the work itself as well, both versions of the book. The key there is to kind of ⁓ summarize a picture’s worth a thousand words, to summarize sort of the
Federico Ramallo (23:23) Right.
Isaac Naor (23:47) concept and make it even more accessible. it feels like the theme of this work truly is accessibility. It’s clarity, it’s guidance, it’s blueprint, and it’s maximally accessible to every single person that looks at it to gain a quick understanding, which can be broken down on a per chapter basis. ⁓ And there are so many pieces that resonate and that are ⁓ relevant, I think, about ⁓ music.
and the musical comparison and how truly every creative practitioner is doing the same thing in some way, or form. It’s the same process. It’s just applied to lots of any field basically.
John (24:32) It’s exactly right. just to finalize the concept, once we got deep into it, and there was the collaboration between Federico and I about what else this means, and that was really exciting. This can also mean and what else this also means blank. That’s why it’s not a translation. This is a collaboration.
Federico Ramallo (24:32) Yes.
John (24:55) This is an exploration of these concepts in Spanish, which we hope is going to prompt conversation because by prompting conversation, that means it’s going to draw people together. It’s going to create more collaborations. if there was a way, we’ve talked about this before, all three of us, if there was a way for us to be able to hand it to people where they didn’t think that the first chapter had to be read first.
and the last chapter had to be read last, if there was a way for us to just give it to them in a way where it’s interchangeable and they can move through it at any rate and in any order that they choose, that to me…
That is an illumination of the concepts. That is a foundation for the frame of thinking. And it’s just a fantastic opportunity to have people just open it to the, say, the ninth chapter, right? Because that’s a multiple of three, Fede. The ninth chapter and start there. And go forward, go back. The only reason it’s set up this way is because of the way things are published. That’s the only reason. The first chapter
is not the first concept.
Isaac Naor (26:07) and
Federico Ramallo (26:07) It
represents more of the chaotic nature of the creativity. And as you said, Isaac, it’s an adaptation. Also, it’s an adaptation on three different cultures. Because as I was talking with John before, so we have the Latin America culture. And in the US, you see Latin America as a whole big blob. But there are nuances between each country. are some tension between each country’s culture. ⁓
John (26:12) Yes.
Federico Ramallo (26:36) So they’re very different, but they share 50 % of their same culture, right? And most of the history, the independence of most of the countries in Latin America happened within three or five years. you know, and then you have the same thing in the 60s, 70s, 80s, where they have a lot of dictatorships, right? The same thing, right? So there’s a lot of shared history that happens together. But then we have Spain, which is
a completely different culture but that we also need to recognize and ⁓ bring together, right? And then we have Argentina which they don’t speak Spanish, they speak Castellano and they speak differently, right? They have a different culture, right? So… ⁓
John (27:23) Well, you
say they. I think it’s important that people understand you’re from Argentina.
Federico Ramallo (27:27) I was going there, but yes, I agree And the thing is I was born in Argentina, raised in Argentina, then I moved to Mexico 17 years ago so I come here and I have a lot of cultural differences and issues from that one very interesting was that Why are you screaming? That was people were saying to me, know, why are you screaming?
John (27:30) Okay, alright, go ahead.
Federico Ramallo (27:55) and was speaking in my normal voice I realized then that in Mexico people were talking at a lower level sometimes lower and it is the way they talk so from their perspective I was screaming ⁓ now I’m in between and this is kind of the interesting thing I’m between Mexico and Argentina culture and I’m a mix because wherever I go ⁓
people say you talk funny, you are not from here, right? Even when I go back to Argentina they say exactly the same thing, right? So… Right. So speaking Brooklyn and Idaho, people can tell, right?
John (28:30) People say that to me and I’m speaking English to them.
Isaac Naor (28:34) But you’re speaking Brooklyn.
John (28:36) True enough.
If I’m tired or I’ve just gotten off the phone with my sister, it sounds like, you doing? Forget about it. Don’t worry about nothing. I got you covered. Hey, here you go. That’s for you. Let me take care of you. Don’t worry about nothing. You need something. You call me. You don’t talk to nobody else. All right? Get out of here.
I had to consciously, I made a conscious effort over several years because I decided that I wanted to speak in front of groups and be paid for it. I probably would be more accepted if I was a little bit more articulate in the way that I spoke as opposed to, hey, here’s a couple of things about selling I wanna share with you guys. It’s gonna be awesome, forget about it, no.
Here’s where we’re headed with this kind of thinking folks, you know, a little bit different. Plus I spent some years in radio and when you hear a recording of yourself, it is a wake up call. And to listen to myself in a one hour radio show and think, what?
Why does he sound like that? And it was me. ⁓ So yeah, it’s interesting. The volume of voice is different ⁓ outside of New York to the rest of the country. And the pacing and the speed, of course, you you go to the South, people may speak a little slower. It’s no indication of how fast their minds are working. And I didn’t know that. You told me that, I remember you showed me one of your adventures, Fede, when you were
four-wheeling and you said living in Mexico it’s either birthday party all day or complete chaos.
Federico Ramallo (30:14) Right, there is nothing in between. Yeah, it’s both beautiful and, you know, unnerving.
John (30:17) Hahahaha
Wow, that’s wild.
Federico Ramallo (30:25) Yeah, but I think it’s part of embracing the chaos. mean, you go to the suburbs in the US and they’re all quiet. Everything is over control, regulated. Here it’s a little bit more chaotic, right? And you kind of have to deal with that. But the benefit is that you go and you talk to somebody and everybody’s open their arms, their house to just, you’re a guest wherever you go, right?
And yes, yes. And they say, casa tu casa, my house, your house. they say it ⁓ as a representation, but it’s also literally. If you say, okay, let’s go to your house, and then let’s go to my house, we’re going to your house. ⁓ They actually say yes. Actually, if somebody invites you to wedding or a party or whatever,
John (30:55) Mikasa Tsukasa.
Federico Ramallo (31:23) don’t say no it’s rude to say no right you say yes right even though you’re not planning to go right and it’s because people appreciate you saying yes
Isaac Naor (31:26) It’s weird to say no.
And with the adapting to different cultural norms where we end up iterating and those iterations ⁓ are essentially, they’re essential to our own creative process and part of evolution, right? Because evolution evolving our own mindset, evolving our own practice, evolving anything that we do is a creative practice and requires that is sort of allows for us to accomplish new things that we otherwise couldn’t.
And in thinking about that, it’s funny as you both were talking about evolving around cultural norms and changing, kept, kept the things that were bouncing, the ideas that were bouncing through my mind besides similarities and having similar experiences was going with the flow, going with the flow, we’re opening our creative valve, we’re opening our creative valve, we’re now iterating, we’re iterating, we’re now achieving new creative possibilities. And all of those elements feel so interconnected.
Even though that felt like probably when I started speaking, it felt like it came out of left field. But I was sort of seeing these like these dots being connected over and over again, bouncing around. and yeah, I don’t know if do you when you think about this book, there is a there are a few lines that really stick out to me. One of them was creativity is solitary, but not lonely.
John (33:02) Mmm.
Isaac Naor (33:03) How does that feel to you? What do you think about that? Feta, you want to start? John, you want to start?
John (33:08) No, let FedEx start.
Federico Ramallo (33:09) ⁓ So every time we had these sessions, as John said, arguments about something on the book, ⁓ I find interesting.
John (33:21) loving caring arguments.
Isaac Naor (33:23) It’s a cultural
thing. Keep going.
John (33:24) It’s a cultural thing. No, no, no, no,
Federico Ramallo (33:28) For me, we start from nothing. We come as empty vessels. And then we start in those interactions, we start creating. ⁓ For me, that dynamic of creativity through the discussion, the argument, or just putting ideas into it, ⁓ I find that so fascinating. So for me, it’s… ⁓
it’s a collaborative process, then from that making it, you know, keep, doing it and make making it real. Right. Because we can, we can argue about ideas in the air, but it’s not until we just execute that it becomes something, right? We can argue about something. It’s not until we put in writing that becomes something. Right. And that process becomes, ⁓ it’s, it is a, ⁓ solitary process, right? Because if, if we are, if we’re talking, we’re not doing right kind of thing. So it gets to a point where
Having a conversation becomes distracting, just let me do the work. So that’s how I feel about this. It is a solitary endeavor, but it’s also a collaborative endeavor.
Isaac Naor (34:39) This is not lonely. John, can I add something real fast? Fedde, you used very specific language. You said coming through you. It was coming through you just like music, just exactly like what you said about music. just, can’t help shake the, but try to shake the parallels and it’s impossible because that is one of the things that I found to be so fascinating about this work that I think we’ve all spoken about as well. The parallels between music creation, between writing, between
John (34:40) No, well, yeah, collaboration is not-
Federico Ramallo (34:40) It is not lonely.
Isaac Naor (35:06) coding between anything that we do, any building, it doesn’t matter what we’re doing, they all have the same foundations. So I love that you said coming through you, I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but it was the exact parallel language that you used to describe music coming through you. John, you… Yes, obviously. Even if it wasn’t intentional, it was in the subconscious.
Federico Ramallo (35:24) But of course if it was intentional.
John (35:26) That’s right.
It was essential, but not intentional. ⁓
Federico Ramallo (35:32) Right.
John (35:36) I came to terms with…
how solitary creativity, the initial shaping of an idea, well, not even shaping, the pulling out of the ether, an idea and exactly what Federer just said, putting it somewhere where it’s tangible, whether you read it, you taste it, you listen to it, you watch it, you look at it, you embrace it, you’re moving through a museum, whatever. It’s important that…
the burgeoning creative practitioner. And what I mean by the burgeoning is they’ve completed some work. Maybe they’re not making a living at that work. However, they have completed some work that this book serves as encouragement and reminder.
encouragement. I heard someone speak recently about they they knew someone 35 years ago, as a neighbor, who started a franchise food ⁓ restaurant that made the guy over the course of 30 years a billionaire. And he said, the great thing is, is that the man never changed. Because he said, we stood on my porch, and he looked at me and he said, anybody who is breathing could use some encouragement.
And that just fed, no pun intended, that really fueled how he built his business is that we are here to encourage each other. Not high five over simple accomplishments, but just a little bit of encouragement. And I will tell you guys that I have drawn an inordinate amount of encouragement from both of you over the process that has led us to where we are with the book today. And I look forward to us having more conversations like this, coming to terms with how solitary creative work is.
and not seeing it as lonely means pay attention to what you’re doing.
Federico Ramallo (37:34) Hahaha!
Isaac Naor (37:35) It means focus, right? Because lonely is lack of focus.
John (37:37) It means focus.
That’s exactly right. My first novel and lack of… And how did you open? You said there’s purpose and there’s… You had an alliterative thing. said that when there’s three, it’s not a coincidence, it’s not an accident. There’s purpose and…
Federico Ramallo (37:42) right and lack of purpose
Providence.
John (37:58) Yes, yes. You said that, ⁓ Isaac, you have a great quote about someone is a kind host.
Isaac Naor (37:59) Providence.
That’s serendipity.
John (38:10) Yes. I got, please.
Isaac Naor (38:12) Do you remember it?
But no, I wanna see if you remember it.
John (38:18) I’m just assuming that it’s serendipity as a kind host, but I don’t think that’s deep enough.
Isaac Naor (38:23) I’m trying to remember the beginning of it. ⁓
I have to remember the big, oh my gosh, it’s out of context and the language is not in the front of my brain. yes, Sarah Dippity is a kind host. She allows for us to, if we invite her in, right, if we allow for her to be present, she provides this opportunity for us to see what we need to see, right? Nothing is an accident.
John (38:30) I understand.
Mmm.
Well,
you’re in Southern California. I’m in Idaho. Federico’s is at a secret location. ⁓ No, you’re in Guadalajara, Mexico, At least for now, until you get in your four wheel drive and until you drive across the rest of it. Think about how easy it would be for one of us to say, you know what, I don’t have time for this anymore.
Federico Ramallo (38:58) Yes, here it pronounced Mexico, but yes.
Isaac Naor (39:05) Ugh.
John (39:12) We all have made time. We’ve all invested in this and that yes, working with two other people on something, it kills the loneliness. However, every time we’ve gotten together, all three of us or the combinations, we’ve always walked away with, okay, I need to think about this. I will work on this. So that when we come back, we have something that we hope is going to speak to the other collaborators and
We hope it’s going to advance the work, advance the mission of the work, which is just a little bit of encouragement, a little bit of think about it through, just look at it through this lens and see what happens. And I, in the same way that I hope people will start anywhere in the book or listen at any chapter, I hope they pause it and go to work.
I hope they close the book and go to work. I hope they grab a pen, make a note, fill in the margins, put it down, and then go to work. And when I say go to work is write your song, write your symphony, design your piece of technology, figure out how to bring people together in a more creative and more profitable ways. Start the first of what will probably be seven rough drawings before you put paint on the canvas. Get to work.
Federico Ramallo (40:36) I
Isaac Naor (40:38) You’re suggesting
moving to creative play, if you
John (40:42) Because think about
it. It is ultimate play. Let me try it this way. Let me try it that way. Let me see what this feels like. Let’s see what that sounds like. I mean, it reminds me of this. I sent you guys these images and Isaac, turned it into an animation. This has been hanging on my wall since it was sent to me. Forgive my shaky hands.
Federico Ramallo (41:05) The future belongs to the curious.
John (41:08) Yes. So anybody that’s watching or listening to this podcast that’s curious about how to open their creative valve, look how excited the three of us are about it. And we’re still learning. We’re still, maybe, let me give this one more. I think I can get one more rough edge off this. Go ahead.
Federico Ramallo (41:32) And kind of what I was trying to convey on the intro is we’re coming from three different… ⁓
point of life completely different, right? And we’re merging together on this project and we’re so excited about it that ⁓ I think that’s unique and amazing and something to celebrate.
John (41:54) feel the same way. I’m honored that you guys have put time into this.
Isaac Naor (41:56) in the green one.
John (41:58) March, stride, dance at your own pace along the path to creative play.
Federico Ramallo (42:05) Amazing.
So thank you John, thank you Isaac for being today. ⁓
I think this book is going to be an amazing thing and I’m super happy and excited to be on this journey with you guys together.
John (42:20) Feel the same way.
Isaac Naor (42:21) Thank you.
Likewise.